When is a classic car no longer a classic car?
Discussion
I see a lot of classic owners who buy a classic car, then complain about the brakes, refinement, handling, lack of features and reliability. They then spend thousands fix all these faults. Getting rid of the old engine and putting a modern fuel injected engine, modern brakes, stuff like central locking and a ton of other upgrades. By the time they are finished, the only original component left is the body shell.
I have never under this, why for example spend a ton of money turning an MGB or GT6 into a modern car, when you could just buy a used MX5 or Audi TT for buttons, which would have all those more modern features by default?
A really old car is going to handle, stop, go and have the reliability of a really old car. If you don't want that, why buy an old classic in the first place?
I have never under this, why for example spend a ton of money turning an MGB or GT6 into a modern car, when you could just buy a used MX5 or Audi TT for buttons, which would have all those more modern features by default?
A really old car is going to handle, stop, go and have the reliability of a really old car. If you don't want that, why buy an old classic in the first place?
This has a name, 'resto-mod.' Restoring a car but making it more modern. Many (including me) like modern car conveniences but find them bland otherwise. I wouldn't go as far you mention, but did have a TVR with a replacement ECU junking the old air flow meter, distributor and rotor arm. Ran loads better than standard.
Improving performance usually requires brake upgrades, but I agree some do too far. Makes them very hard to sell on too!
Improving performance usually requires brake upgrades, but I agree some do too far. Makes them very hard to sell on too!
A restomod is no longer a classic car in my view. Some are beautiful like the Eagle E types or the Singer Porsches but these are really new cars.
In the middle lie the more normal cars. Say an MGB. In such cases thousands were built and survive. The population is so large that modifying some of them will not affect the true remaining classics in my opinion.
The interesting area is in the subtle mods- seatbelts,hidden a/c, hidden modern radio that does not change the facia. These would tempt me if my intention was to drive more than concours the car.
In the middle lie the more normal cars. Say an MGB. In such cases thousands were built and survive. The population is so large that modifying some of them will not affect the true remaining classics in my opinion.
The interesting area is in the subtle mods- seatbelts,hidden a/c, hidden modern radio that does not change the facia. These would tempt me if my intention was to drive more than concours the car.
It's finding a middle way between museum piece and replace everything. In either of the extremes, the original car is dead. I'd say that most things that could have been done when the car was a new or say 10 years old are probably OK or even desirable. What's important not to lose a sense of the time. Sometimes the worst thing in a restomod is to fit a modern interior.
We need your definition of a "classic car" before we can answer. Or not.
Cars have been modified/uprated/re-engined/re-bodied/whatever by their owners for at least 120 years.
Ergo, it's not a new thing and the answer is the same as it's always been. It's because that's what that particular owner wants to do.
I couldn't give a s**t whether some total stranger thinks my car is still, or ever was, a "classic" and I really don't understand the repeated interest in the subject.
Drive your "classic car" and modify as little/much as you want while you still can.
Cars have been modified/uprated/re-engined/re-bodied/whatever by their owners for at least 120 years.
Ergo, it's not a new thing and the answer is the same as it's always been. It's because that's what that particular owner wants to do.
I couldn't give a s**t whether some total stranger thinks my car is still, or ever was, a "classic" and I really don't understand the repeated interest in the subject.
Drive your "classic car" and modify as little/much as you want while you still can.
It depends on the car in question to. If you have a near original car in good shape it seems a shame to 'modernise' it. If on the other hand you're restoring a car that any rational person would have scrapped then you may as well fit uprated modern components/systems instead of the marginal components fitted in the first place. Also if the car was intrinsically very good out of the box, why mod it? But if it was intrinsically iffy then modding it might make the difference between enjoying it and cursing it.
bartelbe said:
A really old car is going to handle, stop, go and have the reliability of a really old car. If you don't want that, why buy an old classic in the first place?
That summing-up is well done.Cars were not made just to look at and many of us who play with our original old cars enjoy the experience of using them on the road. Happily the state of the road surfaces, bad though some are, is much better than in 1912 when one of my cars was new (or even in 1938 when the other appeared).
Those who race historic pre-war cars have nice smooth courses too, a long way from the car-breaking bumps of Brooklands, but still have a connection with the cars' history. I think it was Alain de Cadenet who had a plate in the cockpit of one of his cars "Nuvolari sat here" . . .
Allan L said:
That summing-up is well done.
Cars were not made just to look at and many of us who play with our original old cars enjoy the experience of using them on the road. Happily the state of the road surfaces, bad though some are, is much better than in 1912 when one of my cars was new (or even in 1938 when the other appeared).
Those who race historic pre-war cars have nice smooth courses too, a long way from the car-breaking bumps of Brooklands, but still have a connection with the cars' history. I think it was Alain de Cadenet who had a plate in the cockpit of one of his cars "Nuvolari sat here" . . .
Not that I'm old enough to have been there, but I'm pretty sure that most of the cars and bikes that raced at Brooklands were modified on an almost daily basis. Cars were not made just to look at and many of us who play with our original old cars enjoy the experience of using them on the road. Happily the state of the road surfaces, bad though some are, is much better than in 1912 when one of my cars was new (or even in 1938 when the other appeared).
Those who race historic pre-war cars have nice smooth courses too, a long way from the car-breaking bumps of Brooklands, but still have a connection with the cars' history. I think it was Alain de Cadenet who had a plate in the cockpit of one of his cars "Nuvolari sat here" . . .
Modifying cars and building Specials was once a common pastime and I think it's arrogant of this generation to suddenly become arbiters of what's an acceptable modification on someone else's car.
I understand the attachment to "originality" and the historical interest in an unbroken history, but putting a five speed gearbox in an MGB is hardly a crime against humanity.
I mean it's not as though any of us would put an aircraft engine in a Vintage Bentley is it ?
I can understand adding stuff like electronic ignition, putting in a brake servo or converting front brakes to discs. Adding overdrive or a 5 speed box. I don't want to copy the Germans and have historic status removed if you change to more modern headlights.
What I don't get is the sort of person who buys a classic and is disappointed that it isn't a modern car. Then basically rips out everything. Especially when there are more modern alternatives, that would meet their requirements and require far less work.
Each to their own I suppose.
What I don't get is the sort of person who buys a classic and is disappointed that it isn't a modern car. Then basically rips out everything. Especially when there are more modern alternatives, that would meet their requirements and require far less work.
Each to their own I suppose.
bartelbe said:
What I don't get is the sort of person who buys a classic and is disappointed that it isn't a modern car. Then basically rips out everything. Especially when there are more modern alternatives, that would meet their requirements and require far less work.
I agree, but that's usually because they really aren't classic car enthusiasts in the first place.....they've bought it because its seen as a trendy thing to do......suckered into the drive it once a year to Revival mindset, but don't even enjoy that once a year drive.There will never be consensus on this - my Alfa has electric power steering, electronic ignition, rear seat belts and period correct Alfa alloy wheels.
In the case of the EPAS, other Alfisti were predictably divided: a number were interested in the spec as they were considering a similar mod; the majority were ‘live and let live’ even though it wouldn’t be for them; a few were horrified that I had butchered my car (the latter group including the purists who think using radial tyres and modern engine oil is sacrilegious!)
To me they are sensible mods that make the car safer, easier to drive and better looking and don’t in any way compromise the car’s character - each to their own as always!
In the case of the EPAS, other Alfisti were predictably divided: a number were interested in the spec as they were considering a similar mod; the majority were ‘live and let live’ even though it wouldn’t be for them; a few were horrified that I had butchered my car (the latter group including the purists who think using radial tyres and modern engine oil is sacrilegious!)
To me they are sensible mods that make the car safer, easier to drive and better looking and don’t in any way compromise the car’s character - each to their own as always!
AMGSee55 said:
There will never be consensus on this - my Alfa has electric power steering, electronic ignition, rear seat belts and period correct Alfa alloy wheels.
In the case of the EPAS, other Alfisti were predictably divided: a number were interested in the spec as they were considering a similar mod; the majority were ‘live and let live’ even though it wouldn’t be for them; a few were horrified that I had butchered my car (the latter group including the purists who think using radial tyres and modern engine oil is sacrilegious!)
To me they are sensible mods that make the car safer, easier to drive and better looking and don’t in any way compromise the car’s character - each to their own as always!
With you there.In the case of the EPAS, other Alfisti were predictably divided: a number were interested in the spec as they were considering a similar mod; the majority were ‘live and let live’ even though it wouldn’t be for them; a few were horrified that I had butchered my car (the latter group including the purists who think using radial tyres and modern engine oil is sacrilegious!)
To me they are sensible mods that make the car safer, easier to drive and better looking and don’t in any way compromise the car’s character - each to their own as always!
Back when the cars were newer folk would update stuff, we were always adding bits or improving things in the 1970's and 80's, electronic ignition, better plug leads and coils, radial tyres on wider aluminium wheels, lowered springs uprated shockers, flared arches etc etc etc.
About the only upgrade that really gets me is the Tuscan style lights on a Chimaera. I'd do the Mk 3 Chimaera faired in lights but not the tuscan style. Other than that it's live and let live.
Parts also get replaced because the old ones are knackered and sometimes it's easier to replace the classic parts with newer ones.
When I had my XK150 the engine needed work and initially it looked like it was going to be easier to replace it with a fully working one I'd managed to acquire. OK, the replacement was a slightly newer version of the classic Jaguar XK... While it was out I replaced the non-overdrive box with the period correct OD box because mine had been ordered without it. The new engine ate the OD box :-( and everyone in the business I spoke to said that if you put another OD box it that engine will just eat the box again. So I ended up with putting a 5 speeder in because it was easily available and would take the torque. To my mind it significantly changed the character of the car, to some extent an XK without a Moss box isn't really an XK any more. It was only afterwards that Lowdrag said "why didn't you just swap the rear diff to a different ratio" Duh! Oh well.
You hear lots of complaints about the quality of classic car parts, sometimes it's just easier to do repairs by using some more modern equivalents.
When I had my XK150 the engine needed work and initially it looked like it was going to be easier to replace it with a fully working one I'd managed to acquire. OK, the replacement was a slightly newer version of the classic Jaguar XK... While it was out I replaced the non-overdrive box with the period correct OD box because mine had been ordered without it. The new engine ate the OD box :-( and everyone in the business I spoke to said that if you put another OD box it that engine will just eat the box again. So I ended up with putting a 5 speeder in because it was easily available and would take the torque. To my mind it significantly changed the character of the car, to some extent an XK without a Moss box isn't really an XK any more. It was only afterwards that Lowdrag said "why didn't you just swap the rear diff to a different ratio" Duh! Oh well.
You hear lots of complaints about the quality of classic car parts, sometimes it's just easier to do repairs by using some more modern equivalents.
Here's an example of a classic make more 'modern' without (IMHO) getting carried away. Mini countryman at auction next week:
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/events/2020-a...
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/events/2020-a...
Well, I've had my E-type 38 years and what have I done to make it more modern? I've changed to four-pot brakes and added 123 ignition, that's all really. I suppose that anno domini may well require power steering, and this autumn all lighting (with the exception of the engine warning light and hand brake) will be changed to LED for improved visibility and less power drain. Finally they have managed to make LED bulbs for the old PL700 headlights. None of these things will really be visible, but will improve the driveability of the car no end. I don't want fuel injection, uprated engine, although I did have Tadpole modify the old Motorola to provide FM but it was a complete waste of money.
Pre 80’s car tend to have been in production longer than the 3 years they are now. So early versions which tend to be more desirable can be fitted with later upgraded parts from the last year of production say. Not too restomod but the classic is in keeping with its original design. Eg early versions may have front drum brakes and no brake servo. Later versions could have vented front disc brakes and larger piston calipers fitted with a brake servo. Engine wise you may find later versions have strengthened engine blocks, larger valves fitted better cams and timing. So an earlier mk1 could be as comfortable to drive as the later versions.
Granted sticking in a massive v8 and gearbox to suit is leaving a true classic behind and just an older styled car with modern everything is a niche in itself.
But to keep a cars classic status it must use period running gear of the type available in years of manufacture. Modified parts are acceptable provided they are also period but some parts say springs, shock absorbers are ok to fit as modern components are they are perishable items. Changing rear leaf springs to coil overs wouldn’t be correct if the manufacturer never originally fitted in any of the vehicles derivatives. Fitting upgraded leaf springs, decambered for example would be acceptable as it’s a modified item of the same type.
Just as an example. A mk1 ford escort 1.1l can still be classic with 2.0 running gear from a mk1 rs2000. A mk1 escort rs2000 with a modern 16v twin cam turbo motor isn’t in keeping with its classic status but niche as a restomod. A mk1 rs2000 escort running a 1975 Ford v6 from a savage conversion would keep its classic status. A rover v8 conversion of 1975 can also keep its classic status if it can be proved. A rover v8 conversion with fuel injection is a later engine type and wouldn’t be of period modification. So as far as the rolling 40 year classic status goes the fuel injected engine if available in 1985 spec at the earliest would in effect make that particular car 10 years newer and would require it to be a further 10 years older to be granted a classic by the government’s standards. So fitting brand new modern tech engines and gearbox’s into 40year old classic cars would void their classic status until receipt of fitting is 40 years old. Hope that makes sense in a simplified way
Granted sticking in a massive v8 and gearbox to suit is leaving a true classic behind and just an older styled car with modern everything is a niche in itself.
But to keep a cars classic status it must use period running gear of the type available in years of manufacture. Modified parts are acceptable provided they are also period but some parts say springs, shock absorbers are ok to fit as modern components are they are perishable items. Changing rear leaf springs to coil overs wouldn’t be correct if the manufacturer never originally fitted in any of the vehicles derivatives. Fitting upgraded leaf springs, decambered for example would be acceptable as it’s a modified item of the same type.
Just as an example. A mk1 ford escort 1.1l can still be classic with 2.0 running gear from a mk1 rs2000. A mk1 escort rs2000 with a modern 16v twin cam turbo motor isn’t in keeping with its classic status but niche as a restomod. A mk1 rs2000 escort running a 1975 Ford v6 from a savage conversion would keep its classic status. A rover v8 conversion of 1975 can also keep its classic status if it can be proved. A rover v8 conversion with fuel injection is a later engine type and wouldn’t be of period modification. So as far as the rolling 40 year classic status goes the fuel injected engine if available in 1985 spec at the earliest would in effect make that particular car 10 years newer and would require it to be a further 10 years older to be granted a classic by the government’s standards. So fitting brand new modern tech engines and gearbox’s into 40year old classic cars would void their classic status until receipt of fitting is 40 years old. Hope that makes sense in a simplified way
It's a great big wormy can of "it depends".
My dad's Austin 7 isn't original, it's not blatantly modified, but it has some things done to it by previous owners, for example hydraulic brakes.
But the stuff on it that isn't original is older than most people's classic cars, so is itself "period" in its own way.
My Landie has parabolic springs and tubeless tyres on late Defender wheels, but only someone who really knows them would be able to tell there's been a change, and it rides a lot better as a result of that. Still has the original spec powertrain and brakes, because it all works just fine if you look after it somewhat, and the driving experience is very much "series Landie".
I'm in the camp that if you have something rare/original, it's probably best kept that way, but there's nothing especially wrong with sympathetic modifications that make a car more usable and mean you get to enjoy it more.
My dad's Austin 7 isn't original, it's not blatantly modified, but it has some things done to it by previous owners, for example hydraulic brakes.
But the stuff on it that isn't original is older than most people's classic cars, so is itself "period" in its own way.
My Landie has parabolic springs and tubeless tyres on late Defender wheels, but only someone who really knows them would be able to tell there's been a change, and it rides a lot better as a result of that. Still has the original spec powertrain and brakes, because it all works just fine if you look after it somewhat, and the driving experience is very much "series Landie".
I'm in the camp that if you have something rare/original, it's probably best kept that way, but there's nothing especially wrong with sympathetic modifications that make a car more usable and mean you get to enjoy it more.
What I can't understand is why certain people feel it their duty to dictate to others what they should do with their classic car, how it should look, what modifications they should be allowed to make to it, and then to look down their noses at cars that don't fit their criteria.
Far too many classic cars steer like cr4p, handle like a sail boat in a storm, and don't stop for shlt!
The fact of the matter is, the manufacturers would have loved to be able to make their cars steer, handle and stop like the resto-mod cars do, it's what they were always trying to do! - It's the reason why they kept coming out with newer, improved versions.
One of the biggest problems with the classic car World is, people getting up their own arses about other people's classic cars - And it shows itself in this thread.
The thing about the classic car market is: There's room for everyone - Including those who like cars to be totally original, un-restored, and with aged patina, those who like cars restored to original factory specification, to look factory fresh, and those who like to upgrade their cars, and make them drive as the designer could only wish they did.
If you're happy to live with the cr4ppy steering, dodgy handling, and pi$$ poor brakes - Good for you!
By the same token, if you're happy to have your classic car steer, handle and stop in a way that the designer could only dream it would - Good for you too!
Whatever you prefer, there's no reason to look down your nose at someone else's classic car, just because it's not what you prefer.
Far too many classic cars steer like cr4p, handle like a sail boat in a storm, and don't stop for shlt!
The fact of the matter is, the manufacturers would have loved to be able to make their cars steer, handle and stop like the resto-mod cars do, it's what they were always trying to do! - It's the reason why they kept coming out with newer, improved versions.
One of the biggest problems with the classic car World is, people getting up their own arses about other people's classic cars - And it shows itself in this thread.
The thing about the classic car market is: There's room for everyone - Including those who like cars to be totally original, un-restored, and with aged patina, those who like cars restored to original factory specification, to look factory fresh, and those who like to upgrade their cars, and make them drive as the designer could only wish they did.
If you're happy to live with the cr4ppy steering, dodgy handling, and pi$$ poor brakes - Good for you!
By the same token, if you're happy to have your classic car steer, handle and stop in a way that the designer could only dream it would - Good for you too!
Whatever you prefer, there's no reason to look down your nose at someone else's classic car, just because it's not what you prefer.
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