Discussion
Pretty much all classics have been restored.
Something can only be original once. Of course cars were err, "cars" in period and were used and abused accordingly. Very few escaped this fate. Most ended up in the crusher.
In my eyes there's nothing worse than say a restored DB5 with two pack paint and flawless modern leather. The same goes for a Fiat 500. Modern materials make the thing about as evocative as a wet weekend in Skegness. The musty "smell" goes!
I've just found an unrestored British 1959 Frogeye. This thing has been cherished and garaged from day one and is totally un-messed with. It has its original paint too. It's pretty mind blowing all told. It drives beautifully with 24k miles from new.
It seems the market does not place a meaty premium on original cars. Restored cars are invariably more than an original thing. I suppose because they are Unicorns. They generally don't exist.
If my Sprite was an E type S1 I reckon you'd be looking at £200k plus. There's very little unrestored stuff out there but to me it's the ultimate. I highly value originality and will pay handsomely for the privilege.
Nothing comes close..
Something can only be original once. Of course cars were err, "cars" in period and were used and abused accordingly. Very few escaped this fate. Most ended up in the crusher.
In my eyes there's nothing worse than say a restored DB5 with two pack paint and flawless modern leather. The same goes for a Fiat 500. Modern materials make the thing about as evocative as a wet weekend in Skegness. The musty "smell" goes!
I've just found an unrestored British 1959 Frogeye. This thing has been cherished and garaged from day one and is totally un-messed with. It has its original paint too. It's pretty mind blowing all told. It drives beautifully with 24k miles from new.
It seems the market does not place a meaty premium on original cars. Restored cars are invariably more than an original thing. I suppose because they are Unicorns. They generally don't exist.
If my Sprite was an E type S1 I reckon you'd be looking at £200k plus. There's very little unrestored stuff out there but to me it's the ultimate. I highly value originality and will pay handsomely for the privilege.
Nothing comes close..
Edited by W11PEL on Monday 5th October 20:47
I was going to seek opinions on here about this subject, this seems as good a thread as any.
My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
Yertis said:
I was going to seek opinions on here about this subject, this seems as good a thread as any.
My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
That's what you need to do.My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
Find a proper sympathetic artisan who understands what's required. It can be done if the guy is really good....
It’s an interesting debate. In my view, it’s great to see an original, unrestored classic simply because of its rarity. We go (correction, used to go) to a few local classic car shows each year in our 1960 Ford. Inevitably, the majority of cars on display are heavily restored, and whilst it’s nice to see ranks of gleaming classics, from E-Types to A35s, it’s the rare, unrestored cars that I enjoy looking at more.
Last year at a show an original, unrestored Zephyr was parked in amongst a group of restored Consuls, Zephyrs and Zodiacs. It was barely looked at by the public, who were far more interested in the gleaming restored models. I chatted to the owner for quite some time about his car. It had been in the family from new (1959) and passed on down the generations, and it was going to pass to his son in due course. It was a lovely old thing. Patina is an overused term these days but was wholly appropriate in this case. Lovely worn original leather upholstery, bubbled paintwork in the usual places, corroded chromework, a missing badge and various dings it had collected over the last 60+ years. It was clear he and his family still enjoyed it immensely, using it in all weathers, and he was adamant that it should remain in its slightly tatty state when his son eventually took it on. I hope it does.
Last year at a show an original, unrestored Zephyr was parked in amongst a group of restored Consuls, Zephyrs and Zodiacs. It was barely looked at by the public, who were far more interested in the gleaming restored models. I chatted to the owner for quite some time about his car. It had been in the family from new (1959) and passed on down the generations, and it was going to pass to his son in due course. It was a lovely old thing. Patina is an overused term these days but was wholly appropriate in this case. Lovely worn original leather upholstery, bubbled paintwork in the usual places, corroded chromework, a missing badge and various dings it had collected over the last 60+ years. It was clear he and his family still enjoyed it immensely, using it in all weathers, and he was adamant that it should remain in its slightly tatty state when his son eventually took it on. I hope it does.
Yertis said:
I was going to seek opinions on here about this subject, this seems as good a thread as any.
My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
I think that with classic cars it is best to apply the same principle that William Morris set out for historic buildings in the manifesto of the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings and avoid wholesale restoration but rather "stave off decay by daily care"My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
Unrestored is great - Its own market, its own niche.
I disagree about the flawlessly restored DB Aston - Its a different market, a different product, a different piece of jewellery (and imho snobbery around unrestored/restored cars is just that - Snobbery).
For what it's worth, a wet weekend in Skegness is what you make of it - and has more to do with who you spend that weekend with, and what you do because it's wet outside.
I disagree about the flawlessly restored DB Aston - Its a different market, a different product, a different piece of jewellery (and imho snobbery around unrestored/restored cars is just that - Snobbery).
For what it's worth, a wet weekend in Skegness is what you make of it - and has more to do with who you spend that weekend with, and what you do because it's wet outside.
Nice Frogeye 
When I was about 5, thanks to my parents, I was stood on an oil drum spectating at clearways Brands Hatch and a frogeye, crashed [ not heavily ] right in front of me making me fall off the drum and land in a muddy puddle, my mum was not best pleased !
That race was also memorable for a terrific dice between 2 x grey with orange coloured Anglia’s and a pale blue Mustang for the lead.
Anyway, I digress, back to this topic, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, Better than new classic cars whatever they are IMO are just not right, I like to see a tidy ish car though, not rot boxes or baskets case’s those sorts certainly warrant a total restoration.
Contradicting myself however I do like seeing higher end cars that have been restored well, not to perfection though, older cars need a bit of “character”
What really gets my goat is immaculate way better than new WW2 Jeeps, these wonderful machines need using and abusing
Yertis, IMO your Quattro would benefit from a sympathetic respray as has been mentioned, leaving the rest as is, trouble is, if when you start delving into the “scabby” bits you discover more nasties, knowing when to stop is tricky
When I was about 5, thanks to my parents, I was stood on an oil drum spectating at clearways Brands Hatch and a frogeye, crashed [ not heavily ] right in front of me making me fall off the drum and land in a muddy puddle, my mum was not best pleased !
That race was also memorable for a terrific dice between 2 x grey with orange coloured Anglia’s and a pale blue Mustang for the lead.
Anyway, I digress, back to this topic, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, Better than new classic cars whatever they are IMO are just not right, I like to see a tidy ish car though, not rot boxes or baskets case’s those sorts certainly warrant a total restoration.
Contradicting myself however I do like seeing higher end cars that have been restored well, not to perfection though, older cars need a bit of “character”
What really gets my goat is immaculate way better than new WW2 Jeeps, these wonderful machines need using and abusing
Yertis, IMO your Quattro would benefit from a sympathetic respray as has been mentioned, leaving the rest as is, trouble is, if when you start delving into the “scabby” bits you discover more nasties, knowing when to stop is tricky
Good post and fabulous original car.
It's a contentious subject of course as some like the look of the imaculate restored car and some prefer the original look, with a few lumps and bumps showing a cars life lived, not so different from us.
I faced this dilemma recently when my classic got to the point where I either carried out some fairly major structural repairs, or the car was going in the bin. Eventually I decided to work with a restorer who managed to carry out all the structural stuff without touching the exterior paint (other than a few areas like the sills as they had to be replaced - inner and outer) and a small area on the front valance. Otherwise, the car still looks the same from above, but is now fit for another 20 years of use. We even managed to remove the front wings and then re-fit them without touching the exterior paint so it all still blends. Really it seems to be a case of repairing sympathetically as age takes it's toll and trying to preserve as much of the originality as possible. After 38 years of use 100K+ miles and multiple owners it's never going to be concourse but that means I can use it as much as I like and not worry abut residuals etc.
ClaphamGT3 said:
I think that with classic cars it is best to apply the same principle that William Morris set out for historic buildings in the manifesto of the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings and avoid wholesale restoration but rather "stave off decay by daily care"
Yes, the SPAB philosophy, which I've wrestled with in the context of trying to come to an accommodation with a grey-tiled 1950s fireplace in the corner of the parlour of a 17th Century farmhouse. The challenge is how to address the previous owner's relative lack of care.Lovely Frogeye!
It all comes down to the condition of the car - was reading Evil Len’s wonderful thread on his Minor restoration last night - there was no way that the car would have survived without a total restoration. But on the other hand, you are quite correct - there is a real frisson about driving a totally original car - I can see it both ways - have owned my 16V Jetta since new, it has always lived in a garage, despite a decent run just over a week ago, it has yet to trouble 55k miles, because I have always been careful it has a perfect interior, and because I was the only person at the time who didn’t totally respect VW’s undersealing & rustproofing it got its undersealing brought up to scratch & a good Waxoiling before it saw a damp road. Driving it always feels special & takes me back in time. Conversely my Golf spent 13 years out of my hands before I was able to buy it back again, by that time it had got a bit tatty & tired, and needed a good going over & so it has had a complete mechanical overhaul & sympathetic upgrade by TSR, as well as a two year (don’t ask..) trip to the body shop, still have the tatty interior to sort out. Driving this & working on it, I am conscious that having been apart, not everything is screwed together like it once was.
So yes I agree that there is nothing like a original car, but it is a rare 60 year old car that can be kept like that. Keep up with the Waxoilling!
It all comes down to the condition of the car - was reading Evil Len’s wonderful thread on his Minor restoration last night - there was no way that the car would have survived without a total restoration. But on the other hand, you are quite correct - there is a real frisson about driving a totally original car - I can see it both ways - have owned my 16V Jetta since new, it has always lived in a garage, despite a decent run just over a week ago, it has yet to trouble 55k miles, because I have always been careful it has a perfect interior, and because I was the only person at the time who didn’t totally respect VW’s undersealing & rustproofing it got its undersealing brought up to scratch & a good Waxoiling before it saw a damp road. Driving it always feels special & takes me back in time. Conversely my Golf spent 13 years out of my hands before I was able to buy it back again, by that time it had got a bit tatty & tired, and needed a good going over & so it has had a complete mechanical overhaul & sympathetic upgrade by TSR, as well as a two year (don’t ask..) trip to the body shop, still have the tatty interior to sort out. Driving this & working on it, I am conscious that having been apart, not everything is screwed together like it once was.
So yes I agree that there is nothing like a original car, but it is a rare 60 year old car that can be kept like that. Keep up with the Waxoilling!
I see your point, but I'm of a mixed opinion. I've got a restored classic mini that looks and drives like a new car. It's unmodified, but has been put together with more care and protection than when it left the factory. I actually think it's better than an unrestored example.
By contrast I've also got a 1972 Volvo P1800ES that's completely unrestored and original, but in very good shape. I have only just purchased this and it will need some recommissioning work as it's been garaged for a long time, but I won't be doing a restoration. It has it's own charm so I can relate to what you're saying here.
I enjoy them both for what they are, but I certainly don't begrudge the mini for being restored.
By contrast I've also got a 1972 Volvo P1800ES that's completely unrestored and original, but in very good shape. I have only just purchased this and it will need some recommissioning work as it's been garaged for a long time, but I won't be doing a restoration. It has it's own charm so I can relate to what you're saying here.
I enjoy them both for what they are, but I certainly don't begrudge the mini for being restored.
john2443 said:
W11PEL said:
john2443 said:
Ooooh! Rubber mats - they're like hen's teeth!
This is a man who knows his onions!!!! My cap is doffed!The clock was fitted by the original lady owner when a few weeks old. It's an 8 day device and still works! (if a but fast..) I'm no fan of it sticking out like a sore thumb on the dash but it is what it is. It's logged in the history. I've never seen a RHD Frogeye with an original set of factory rubber mats. They make it for me actually.
The wheel is a period Les Leston. I have the original wheel which is not the most aesthetically pleasant thing to behold.
Both doors have a sticker from Skinners of Hastings where she bought it. Have no fear, this car is in no way mint condition. It has a little wear commensurate with its use and age. The engine bay has plenty of "patina" but is original. There are one or two bubbles here and there.
Materials from the 50's are quite robust but with abuse and sunlight do eventually deteriorate. But this one has been cared for and garaged. The cabin is a delightful place to be. Very simple yet effective. I suppose I'm a minimalist.
The A series motor in this Sprite is a real peach. Very smooth yet powerful enough for keeping up on modern roads. The brakes and gearbox show their age technology wise but I will not be fitting discs and a 5 speed. This is obviously not the car for that.
I'm no snob but conversely no fan of a turn key total tear down machine. I like to see an old girl wearing its wrinkles!
Footnote
The original paint is like an enamel. It's a beautiful finish. It appears that the car has no primer under the white coat. The engine bay has no primer under the top coat. Maybe BMC primed the exterior before painting but it doesn't look like it to me.
Edited by W11PEL on Tuesday 6th October 10:33
Yertis said:
I was going to seek opinions on here about this subject, this seems as good a thread as any.
My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
This is an interesting and often quite divisive issue - my position is always to favour originality, but I think from your description that 'it's patina' as an option has probably run its course and it needs something, just a question of what - for me the tip over point is when a car just starts to look scruffy, no matter how well it is maintained. Another poster on this thread referenced a 50s Ford which was ignored at a car show, when alongside restored equivalents. Again from the description, the car sounded a bit neglected which is not the same as patina (IMHO). So yes, I would favour attention to the areas that need it only, the proviso being of course that these localised repairs are not conspicuous compared to the original elements - do you have any pics of the car to share?My Quattro is completely untouched, by Quattro standards very low miles too. One owner from new plus me, and in fact by strange twist of fate I discovered when I'd bought it that I'd 'known' the car when it was new. (I ought to write up over in the 'Cars you promised yourself' thread, whatever it's called.)
Anyway, it's mechanically spot on, structurally completely sound. But the paint's very tatty, it's got a few battle scars and it has some small rusty bits on the lower arches. Looks great at 100 feet. It could do with a complete strip down and respray, and until recently that was my plan. Trouble is, once I do that it won't 'be ex-Ingolstadt' anymore. I'm thinking now do I leave as is, because 'it's patina', or maybe 'patch and polish'. The perfectionist in me can't really carry off the 'patina' myth, but the complete strip down also seems increasingly sacrilegious. What I really want is a body shop who will meticulously repair the damaged bits, without doing the whole thing.
The classic car world is a broad church with a place for everything but the flip side of "unrestored" is it tends to mean either "rusty shed" or "locked up and never seen or driven".
Myself, I'd rather see a Trigger's broom classic out and about on the road than knowing an unrestored/matching numbers/original air molecules still in the tyres car is sat somewhere behind locked garage doors.
Myself, I'd rather see a Trigger's broom classic out and about on the road than knowing an unrestored/matching numbers/original air molecules still in the tyres car is sat somewhere behind locked garage doors.
W11PEL said:
The A series motor in this Sprite is a real peach. Very smooth yet powerful enough for keeping up on modern roads. The brakes and gearbox show their age technology wise but I will not be fitting discs and a 5 speed.
I kept mine standard, was expecting it to be very slow but as you say it kept up with traffic perfectly well as long as you aren't expecting to cruise at 70 on the motorway!I was 17 and was looking for my first car - desperate for a "frogeye"
This was 1970 and every one I looked at was on the last leg of a slippery slide into "Burkies" the local scrapyard.
I even got to the stage of writing down the reg and description of any I saw in the street in case it came up for sale.
After 2 years I bought an MG Midget
Now i see similar cars looking immaculate, sadly their price tends to be about £17000 rather than the £250 I paid for my MG in 1972
And I no longer fit a Sprite, they must make the doors shorter when they retore them.
This was 1970 and every one I looked at was on the last leg of a slippery slide into "Burkies" the local scrapyard.
I even got to the stage of writing down the reg and description of any I saw in the street in case it came up for sale.
After 2 years I bought an MG Midget
Now i see similar cars looking immaculate, sadly their price tends to be about £17000 rather than the £250 I paid for my MG in 1972
And I no longer fit a Sprite, they must make the doors shorter when they retore them.
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