Modern Classic, to Classic Classic - am I mad?
Discussion
Good morning PH's! So, I really enjoy driving, and have had a few fun cars, starting with a vantage v8 roadster, and ending up more recently with a 993 cabriolet - everything has been manual so far. None of the cars have been a daily driver, but more for whizzing around the countryside and occasionally a trip to Scotland or the South of France.
The time has come for something new, and i've been thinking about what might come next; one of the things I love about some of my more recent cars is that they have held value rather than depreciated like a stone, and this made me think about going further back into classic cars. I've always loved the e-type, and it looks like a reasonable, but not concours, e-type 4.2 roadster is doable. I have always wanted one of these and find them so beautiful. I've also always wanted a classic car since doing rallies as a kid with my Dad in his TF1500!
My questions are, will these break down all day, and what are the costs and efforts required to keep them running reliably compared to more modern sports cars? Also, am I an idiot for even considering this? Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you!
Ed
The time has come for something new, and i've been thinking about what might come next; one of the things I love about some of my more recent cars is that they have held value rather than depreciated like a stone, and this made me think about going further back into classic cars. I've always loved the e-type, and it looks like a reasonable, but not concours, e-type 4.2 roadster is doable. I have always wanted one of these and find them so beautiful. I've also always wanted a classic car since doing rallies as a kid with my Dad in his TF1500!
My questions are, will these break down all day, and what are the costs and efforts required to keep them running reliably compared to more modern sports cars? Also, am I an idiot for even considering this? Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you!
Ed
Get a good one that is in regular use already, maintain it properly, and there is no reason it should be unreliable. A concours, little used car will take an effort to keep immaculate (if you want to preserve value), and possibly be unreliable until all the failure points have broken and been fixed. My 1969 car I've had for 18 years, does 5,000-6,000 miles each year, and is generally reliable. I use it for fun, for work, and for fully laden family holidays across Europe.
Speaking generally (I have no E-Type knowledge), plenty of people have perfectly reliable classics and one of the key things seems to be getting regular use out of them, not shutting them away for weeks or months on end.
They're generally less complex than a modern car so there's no need to plug them into anything to figure out what's wrong, but that does mean (unless you can do it yourself) finding someone who can diagnose a problem without plugging a laptop in. That of course will depend on what area you're in. An E-Type will at least have specialists, but maybe a specialist will be an expensive way of diagnosing a basic fault.
They're generally less complex than a modern car so there's no need to plug them into anything to figure out what's wrong, but that does mean (unless you can do it yourself) finding someone who can diagnose a problem without plugging a laptop in. That of course will depend on what area you're in. An E-Type will at least have specialists, but maybe a specialist will be an expensive way of diagnosing a basic fault.
Do please drive at least two or three before you commit. Hire one for a day if necessary. 60s cars are a very different kettle of fish than cars from the 90s and beyond and you may find that you don't get on at all with the driving experience.
Beware also of shuny cars that haven't been properly maintained and set up and are consequently dogs to drive.
Beware also of shuny cars that haven't been properly maintained and set up and are consequently dogs to drive.
How long is a piece of string?
The answer to your question will depend entirely on what make/model you're considering and then, more importantly, how it's been looked after and used over its life, which could be what, 25-50 or 60 years? It's very difficult to say whether anything with that many variables is likely to be a good bet, or not.
IF you're seriously considering everyday use I would be tempted by something that has excellent parts, ie even day-to-day, availability. Something like an MGB, just as an example, has virtually all parts availability as far as I'm aware. Be wary of cheap electrical parts, ie condensers etc.. A big, and growing, problem is that many garage staff have absolutely no idea of older fuel/electrical systems and many of time-served staff have either retired or are close to it.
How much tinkering are you prepared to do yourself, or will you rely on garages/specialists? Personally, much as I like classics (and I have a few), I wouldn't use one every day; they (whatever it is) rarely live up to the rose-tinted specs memories.
Are you mad? Maybe not but, as with many things, there are degrees in everything
All IMHO, of course.
The answer to your question will depend entirely on what make/model you're considering and then, more importantly, how it's been looked after and used over its life, which could be what, 25-50 or 60 years? It's very difficult to say whether anything with that many variables is likely to be a good bet, or not.
IF you're seriously considering everyday use I would be tempted by something that has excellent parts, ie even day-to-day, availability. Something like an MGB, just as an example, has virtually all parts availability as far as I'm aware. Be wary of cheap electrical parts, ie condensers etc.. A big, and growing, problem is that many garage staff have absolutely no idea of older fuel/electrical systems and many of time-served staff have either retired or are close to it.
How much tinkering are you prepared to do yourself, or will you rely on garages/specialists? Personally, much as I like classics (and I have a few), I wouldn't use one every day; they (whatever it is) rarely live up to the rose-tinted specs memories.
Are you mad? Maybe not but, as with many things, there are degrees in everything
All IMHO, of course.
Don't be too put off by the different 'feel' of classics, you need to acclimatize to their 'differentness'. Mainly their noise and vibration and general ricketyness. Once you get used to that they're great. Even my Quattro feels a bit rattly compared to a modern car, and that's original and low mileage.
I have a 1964 E-Type and a 1989 928. The latter can be used hard in all weathers and I've done 5 continental trips in it and has air con and cruise control. It's a fabulously engineered machine.
The E-Type is much more like an iconically pretty Meccano set and needs a lot more of what I'd call gentle fettling. But is in the round much cheaper to run - tax and MoT exempt and service parts are a fraction of the cost. As an example I paid £55 for all the coolant hoses, 13 of them! A small hose on the 928 would be more than that alone...
Both cars make me appreciate the other at times, I'd say have one of each modern classic and classic classic!
The E-Type is much more like an iconically pretty Meccano set and needs a lot more of what I'd call gentle fettling. But is in the round much cheaper to run - tax and MoT exempt and service parts are a fraction of the cost. As an example I paid £55 for all the coolant hoses, 13 of them! A small hose on the 928 would be more than that alone...
Both cars make me appreciate the other at times, I'd say have one of each modern classic and classic classic!
Take your time to find a good one, desirable colour etc. and at a good price. If you hate it, you can sell it and get most of your money back! If you pay over the top for the first one you fall in love with that may not be the case...
I love old cars, in fact, I've rarely driven modern stuff. But, making progress in traffic, especially in the wet is where they show their age. Demisting, heaters, wipers and brakes are not at all comparable to moderns and trying to press on in motorway traffic, in the rain is where you will notice it most. It's also where you may well feel vulnerable - if you're used to moderns then being cut up in nose to tail in a heavy downpour may just remind you too much that you've forsaken your crumple zones, a.b.s., airbags etc.
If you can handle that, and I'll admit, that even after all these years I sometimes can't anymore, then I wouldn't worry about the reliability - most old cars can be sorted with patience and cash.
I'd say, "Go for it" - you might not be able to for much longer, who wants to live with regrets? Try it, don't like it, sell it and buy a new one...
I love old cars, in fact, I've rarely driven modern stuff. But, making progress in traffic, especially in the wet is where they show their age. Demisting, heaters, wipers and brakes are not at all comparable to moderns and trying to press on in motorway traffic, in the rain is where you will notice it most. It's also where you may well feel vulnerable - if you're used to moderns then being cut up in nose to tail in a heavy downpour may just remind you too much that you've forsaken your crumple zones, a.b.s., airbags etc.
If you can handle that, and I'll admit, that even after all these years I sometimes can't anymore, then I wouldn't worry about the reliability - most old cars can be sorted with patience and cash.
I'd say, "Go for it" - you might not be able to for much longer, who wants to live with regrets? Try it, don't like it, sell it and buy a new one...
Hi all, thank you very much that sounds very sensible and I completely understand the points made! I'm looking at this car. Will definitely try and hire one for a couple of days and go speak to some specialists local to me (SW London) to get a handle on that side of things.
http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
swindler said:
I have a 1964 E-Type and a 1989 928. The latter can be used hard in all weathers and I've done 5 continental trips in it and has air con and cruise control. It's a fabulously engineered machine.
The E-Type is much more like an iconically pretty Meccano set and needs a lot more of what I'd call gentle fettling. But is in the round much cheaper to run - tax and MoT exempt and service parts are a fraction of the cost. As an example I paid £55 for all the coolant hoses, 13 of them! A small hose on the 928 would be more than that alone...
Both cars make me appreciate the other at times, I'd say have one of each modern classic and classic classic!
I have a 1959 Frog Eye Sprite and a 1990 Porsche 928....The E-Type is much more like an iconically pretty Meccano set and needs a lot more of what I'd call gentle fettling. But is in the round much cheaper to run - tax and MoT exempt and service parts are a fraction of the cost. As an example I paid £55 for all the coolant hoses, 13 of them! A small hose on the 928 would be more than that alone...
Both cars make me appreciate the other at times, I'd say have one of each modern classic and classic classic!
I much prefer working on the 928, as the quality of the components is so much higher, but it's a money pit.
But for a sunny trip to the beach, the Frog is hard to beat!
tedward said:
Hi all, thank you very much that sounds very sensible and I completely understand the points made! I'm looking at this car. Will definitely try and hire one for a couple of days and go speak to some specialists local to me (SW London) to get a handle on that side of things.
http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
Southern Classics in Twickenham I’m guessing? Well regarded I believe.http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
tedward said:
Hi all, thank you very much that sounds very sensible and I completely understand the points made! I'm looking at this car. Will definitely try and hire one for a couple of days and go speak to some specialists local to me (SW London) to get a handle on that side of things.
http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
That look nice, but take note of the 6,000 miles since 1994 and many more thousands of pounds spent. That is how classic cars work - they run on petrol and cash!http://www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk/jaguar-e-typ...
Thank you again and have a great weekend!
Ed
It may just be the pictures but the doors look like they may not fit that well - protruding from the body.
I've visited that garage several times - much of their stock was a little over priced and over described in my opinion.
Unless you have expertise I'd suggest you have it independently inspected.
I've visited that garage several times - much of their stock was a little over priced and over described in my opinion.
Unless you have expertise I'd suggest you have it independently inspected.
That advert could have been written for mine with almost the only difference being mine is primrose. Lovely cars and mine has run very reliably since I bought it in 2015. I also have an Elise so a modern and a classic classic. I’ll happily go for long drives in the U.K. but would be less confident heading to the alps as I’m not that handy with the spanner’s. I keep the Elise for that.
Not sure where you are but I’d be happy to let you see mine and come for a ride with me in it so you can do a comparison. I’m in Surrey.
Not sure where you are but I’d be happy to let you see mine and come for a ride with me in it so you can do a comparison. I’m in Surrey.
I have had a modern classic for eight years, a 1999 Alfa Romeo 166 Super V6.
It is a great car for touring. A good all rounder.
Three years ago I bought a 1977 105 Series Spider.
At first I thought it would rattle off the road into the nearest hedge, but once you get used to an old car, it's surprising how capable they are.
Again, get a well used, usable one.
Too many classics sit about, mouldering away, even if they look shiney.
The S2 Spider is zero road tax and about £120 insurance per year. I do about 4,000 miles pa. It's great fun.
It's nice to have one of each.
Maintenance costs are cheaper for the classic, but then big ticket items are more likely to need attention..
It is a great car for touring. A good all rounder.
Three years ago I bought a 1977 105 Series Spider.
At first I thought it would rattle off the road into the nearest hedge, but once you get used to an old car, it's surprising how capable they are.
Again, get a well used, usable one.
Too many classics sit about, mouldering away, even if they look shiney.
The S2 Spider is zero road tax and about £120 insurance per year. I do about 4,000 miles pa. It's great fun.
It's nice to have one of each.
Maintenance costs are cheaper for the classic, but then big ticket items are more likely to need attention..
OP, you have to be super realistic in your expectations. It's not a case of "IF" it breaks down, it's a case of "WHEN". Even well maintained classic cars break down. None of these cars was designed to last fifty, sixty years or longer.
Suggestions -
Maintain the car to the best of your ability or have it maintained by someone who knows what they are doing (not necessarily a marque specialist - some of those trade on reputation alone, and charge accordingly).
Renew parts on a precautionary basis.
Get hazard lights wired in.
Carry tools, hi-viz, spares, and fluids in the boot.
Spares might include a coil, belts, plugs, maybe points and condenser perhaps if you have not had electronic ignition fitted.
The tools could include a lightweight modern jump starter pack. Bring tape and cable ties too.
Have a fire extinguisher.
Use ethanol free fuel if possible.
Join GEM for breakdown assistance. Learn to tell the difference between "oh, that's a new noise", and "that's a new noise, STOP NOW."
Then use the car a lot and enjoy it, but do not think that it will never break down, and also get used to the quirks and oddities of how old cars behave according to different states of the weather and so on. 50s, 60, and 70s cars are fab. Have fun!
PS: I have made it as far back as the 50s. I aim one day to go to the 30s, but haven't got there yet.
Suggestions -
Maintain the car to the best of your ability or have it maintained by someone who knows what they are doing (not necessarily a marque specialist - some of those trade on reputation alone, and charge accordingly).
Renew parts on a precautionary basis.
Get hazard lights wired in.
Carry tools, hi-viz, spares, and fluids in the boot.
Spares might include a coil, belts, plugs, maybe points and condenser perhaps if you have not had electronic ignition fitted.
The tools could include a lightweight modern jump starter pack. Bring tape and cable ties too.
Have a fire extinguisher.
Use ethanol free fuel if possible.
Join GEM for breakdown assistance. Learn to tell the difference between "oh, that's a new noise", and "that's a new noise, STOP NOW."
Then use the car a lot and enjoy it, but do not think that it will never break down, and also get used to the quirks and oddities of how old cars behave according to different states of the weather and so on. 50s, 60, and 70s cars are fab. Have fun!
PS: I have made it as far back as the 50s. I aim one day to go to the 30s, but haven't got there yet.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 29th March 08:22
It's a lovely idea, though I suspect the reality will fall short for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, 60s cars are really very basic and while that's no problem on a sunny summer afternoon, 5am on cold ,wet November commute is something else altogether. They're an object lesson in how far we've come in NVH, heating and general comfort. And that's before you play the 'will she start?' roulette. My favourite yardstick is windscreen wipers; on the old cars they're so hopeless t's tempting to stick my arm out of the window and use my hand. And that's before you get to the reliability question.
Secondly, the death of beauty is familiarity. I did an experiment a while back now, using a 360 Modena as a daily driver; I know this isn't a classic, or wasn't at the time, but the principle holds. Within a couple of weeks I was throwing my bag into the passenger footwell and driving to work thinking about how I was going to approach my day, rather than how cool is this! It was shocking how quickly it became another element of a routine.
In our household we have the concept of the 'winter car', something modern with heated seats and carplay for those mornings when you don't even want to talk to your wife, never mind have the damn car 'communicating' with you. This is the default choice when you need to be somewhere at a specific time, and/or the weather is horrible. For the rest, I use a classic and the go-to over the last couple of years has been a 1980 911SC, modern enough to be reliable, no carbs, decent heater, easy to park and fun to drive. I think Porsche were way ahead of the rest in the 80s, and the SC does daily duties with ease. Not much else from that era I'd use as a pseudo-daily, and certainly nothing older than that.
Firstly, 60s cars are really very basic and while that's no problem on a sunny summer afternoon, 5am on cold ,wet November commute is something else altogether. They're an object lesson in how far we've come in NVH, heating and general comfort. And that's before you play the 'will she start?' roulette. My favourite yardstick is windscreen wipers; on the old cars they're so hopeless t's tempting to stick my arm out of the window and use my hand. And that's before you get to the reliability question.
Secondly, the death of beauty is familiarity. I did an experiment a while back now, using a 360 Modena as a daily driver; I know this isn't a classic, or wasn't at the time, but the principle holds. Within a couple of weeks I was throwing my bag into the passenger footwell and driving to work thinking about how I was going to approach my day, rather than how cool is this! It was shocking how quickly it became another element of a routine.
In our household we have the concept of the 'winter car', something modern with heated seats and carplay for those mornings when you don't even want to talk to your wife, never mind have the damn car 'communicating' with you. This is the default choice when you need to be somewhere at a specific time, and/or the weather is horrible. For the rest, I use a classic and the go-to over the last couple of years has been a 1980 911SC, modern enough to be reliable, no carbs, decent heater, easy to park and fun to drive. I think Porsche were way ahead of the rest in the 80s, and the SC does daily duties with ease. Not much else from that era I'd use as a pseudo-daily, and certainly nothing older than that.
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