will the likes of McLaren 720 ever be classic?
Discussion
Watching a Harry's garage video on the car I was struck by the number of "bells and whistles" fitted to make the car attractive to modern buyers but which are unnecessary in terms of function. Rotating instrument panels are but one example.
I cannot see it being possible to maintain such a complicated car 40 or 50 years down the road in the way that its currently possible to maintain an E type made in the 60s.The latter is essentially simple and made of greasy bits rather than micro electronics, servoes , actuators etc. And greasy bits that can usually be handled by some garage in every town and city.
I cannot see it being possible to maintain such a complicated car 40 or 50 years down the road in the way that its currently possible to maintain an E type made in the 60s.The latter is essentially simple and made of greasy bits rather than micro electronics, servoes , actuators etc. And greasy bits that can usually be handled by some garage in every town and city.
Edited by bordseye on Wednesday 7th July 08:22
It's not really any harder to fix electrical systems than mechanical ones, just a different set of skills and tools. No, it won't be possible to just wave the soldering iron and fix everything - just as there are things you can't just wave a spanner at as they need specialist tools/are 'sealed for life'/just no longer available. And just as there are specialists around today with the appropreate left handed screwdriver to fix the odd mechanical system there will be those who will be able to fix the electronics. Or as today someone has developed an alternative for some no longer available mechanical part people will develop replacement electronics.
I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
Nothing is very predictable in the classic car market. It seems a couple of strong auction performances can send the value of a car sky-rocketing - and vice versa.
Case in point the Jaguar XJ220.
Announced with a list price of £290K but with a touch of inflation/index linking you would need, in 1992, to fork out £490K to put the car on your driveway ...and by the way that stonking V12 is now a 'Metro" engine. Cue the sound of scuttling feet to lawyers/bank managers.
By 1997 the final car rolls off the assembly line and sells for £127K. From memory by the early noughties there were low mileage cars repeatedly advertised for months on end in the £80-120K range. A delivery mileage car sold in 2003 for £105K.
Then someone said - "hang on, it's rare, nearly as quick as an F40 and has an engine developed by the Williams F1 team (lets forget the Metro bit). Prices start to firm up, slowly but surely £200K and then £300K. In 2017 Bonhhams let one go for £343K.
That is probably where we are today when it comes to XJ220 values - so to answer your question , possibly yes, possibly no, it depends on a very fickle market.
Case in point the Jaguar XJ220.
Announced with a list price of £290K but with a touch of inflation/index linking you would need, in 1992, to fork out £490K to put the car on your driveway ...and by the way that stonking V12 is now a 'Metro" engine. Cue the sound of scuttling feet to lawyers/bank managers.
By 1997 the final car rolls off the assembly line and sells for £127K. From memory by the early noughties there were low mileage cars repeatedly advertised for months on end in the £80-120K range. A delivery mileage car sold in 2003 for £105K.
Then someone said - "hang on, it's rare, nearly as quick as an F40 and has an engine developed by the Williams F1 team (lets forget the Metro bit). Prices start to firm up, slowly but surely £200K and then £300K. In 2017 Bonhhams let one go for £343K.
That is probably where we are today when it comes to XJ220 values - so to answer your question , possibly yes, possibly no, it depends on a very fickle market.
The clubs that I used to belong to - but no longer - used to be full of people with classic cars. But somewhere along the line the expression "Classic Cars" has transmogrified into "Collectors Cars" and at the last meeting I went to there were a Mercedes AMG, a line of modern Porsches, an Audi or two, etc. When the Ford GT came out and Clarkson had so many problems with his (highly publicized) the values fell substantially, but now they are "Collectors Cars" and expensive. Obviously they will only go to a show and back because I believe the car has a range of only 140 miles per tankful, so it is hardly what a "GT" is designed for. Watching Bangers and Cash they say that prewar cars are very hard to sell because that generation is dying out, so will it be that my E-type will one day end up being recycled? Who knows. But to return to the question, a McLaren will always be a collectors car due to its rarity and prestige, and as such valuable I guess.
I don’t think so
Today’s supercars are not as rare as they once were.
20 plus yrs ago you’d have had a major moment if you were lucky enough to see one. Today I can guarantee if I were to go to my local town I’d see at least 3.
Might just be me but I have ZERO interest in today’s supercars, every week there’s a new one making the previous one old hat.
Today’s supercars are not as rare as they once were.
20 plus yrs ago you’d have had a major moment if you were lucky enough to see one. Today I can guarantee if I were to go to my local town I’d see at least 3.
Might just be me but I have ZERO interest in today’s supercars, every week there’s a new one making the previous one old hat.
//j17 said:
It's not really any harder to fix electrical systems than mechanical ones, just a different set of skills and tools. No, it won't be possible to just wave the soldering iron and fix everything - just as there are things you can't just wave a spanner at as they need specialist tools/are 'sealed for life'/just no longer available. And just as there are specialists around today with the appropreate left handed screwdriver to fix the odd mechanical system there will be those who will be able to fix the electronics. Or as today someone has developed an alternative for some no longer available mechanical part people will develop replacement electronics.
I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
I am not sure how true this is. It may be that you are a professional software engineer for a motor manufacturer in which case I apologise for doubting you. But two things make me wonder if you are right.I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
Firstly production car ECUs are far more complex than simple race systems and do far more. For example programming to take accoutn of alarms and immobilisers and operate door locks and book locks and active spoilers etc . And thanks to the EU, the software on new cars is now locked and cant be tinkered with and copied in the way that used to be the case. In any event the basic op system of the ECU will change over the years so putting an old program on one might well be like trying to get visicalc to work on windows 10.
The second issue as I found out with my Raymarine boat radar is the impossibility of getting surface mount electronics with special limited run components reopaired by a guy with a soldering iron. I put some real effort into trying not least because the old radar display was let into some very expensive teak woodwork. I failed
Edited by bordseye on Saturday 10th July 21:13
Appreciate it is truly relevant for other threads, but IMHO other than for unicorn cars, at some point over the next 10 years the shine will really come off non elec cars for a number of reasons.
I say that because I think we will end up with petrol/diesel cars banned from city centres over the next 10 years, enormous increases in taxes connected with usage and I think that public opinion (certainly amongst the young) will start to view petrol/diesel cars in the same light at fox hunting etc. Once you cannot use them as before and the great unwashed see them as the devil incarnate then only the really committed with be interested.
Hence as an optimist would say there is certainly going to be a sweetspot - I am holding out for a 488 for £25k...
Saying all that, I have no intention of selling my old cars and am planning to race them for as long as I can but cannot see my kids having any interest in them.
I say that because I think we will end up with petrol/diesel cars banned from city centres over the next 10 years, enormous increases in taxes connected with usage and I think that public opinion (certainly amongst the young) will start to view petrol/diesel cars in the same light at fox hunting etc. Once you cannot use them as before and the great unwashed see them as the devil incarnate then only the really committed with be interested.
Hence as an optimist would say there is certainly going to be a sweetspot - I am holding out for a 488 for £25k...
Saying all that, I have no intention of selling my old cars and am planning to race them for as long as I can but cannot see my kids having any interest in them.
//j17 said:
It's not really any harder to fix electrical systems than mechanical ones, just a different set of skills and tools. No, it won't be possible to just wave the soldering iron and fix everything - just as there are things you can't just wave a spanner at as they need specialist tools/are 'sealed for life'/just no longer available. And just as there are specialists around today with the appropreate left handed screwdriver to fix the odd mechanical system there will be those who will be able to fix the electronics. Or as today someone has developed an alternative for some no longer available mechanical part people will develop replacement electronics.
I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
It's not just the long term maintenance which might prove difficult. Even modifying recent cars is proving much harder because of all the electronics in them. There was lots of interest in making a manual version of the Jaguar XKR, lots of discussions on PH about it, but it never really got anywhere. If you wanted to make a race/track car, no problem, you could rip out the whole of the cars control systems including the dash and replace them with an after market ECU. I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
But the road car projects seemed to have problems that all the different systems expected to talk to each other. The engine management systems, the gearbox and the dash and probably lots of other bits couldn't be treated in isolation, they were an integrated network, take any one part out and the rest didn't want to play. Back with the X100 version you could replace Jaguars diff with a Quaife one, which by all accounts dramatically improved the handling. But for the X150 models this doesn't appear to be an option, their diff is now electronic and I guess it talks to the ABS and the traction control systems.
My point is that it might be difficult to just replace one electronic system. If there is a problem in one area and you can't get the correct part you might need to replace everything and that might well include the dashboard.
yep, I think current cars will be quite risky if one is investing in them. Not so much for EV no oil blah thing but that components might fail which will render the car inoperable, or that components might be risky where you don't want them to be risky. Thirty year airbag detonators? Some vital sensor failure in the stability control which helps keep your 750 horsepower thing on the straight and narrow? MOT checks of those systems and a failure of those systems aren't working?
//j17 said:
It's not really any harder to fix electrical systems than mechanical ones, just a different set of skills and tools. No, it won't be possible to just wave the soldering iron and fix everything - just as there are things you can't just wave a spanner at as they need specialist tools/are 'sealed for life'/just no longer available. And just as there are specialists around today with the appropreate left handed screwdriver to fix the odd mechanical system there will be those who will be able to fix the electronics. Or as today someone has developed an alternative for some no longer available mechanical part people will develop replacement electronics.
I can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
I had the same conversation with my BMW specialist - the way he looked at it was thus, when new, diagnostic equipment and skills required to fix is kept within dealer network, as the car gets older and moves into the independent network those skills are transferred and the diagnostic equipment which was very expensive becomes a lot cheaper making it more accessible, equally componentry will be interchangeable so I don't see current complexity being an issue going forwardI can remember people saying 90s cars were doomed because of all the super-complicated ECUs coming in and that down the line when they were no longer made and your broke you wouldn't be able to fix it. Well even a basic open source ECU like MegaSquirt can do much more than even the most advanced 90s ECU. When we start getting classics that need a driver to turn the clock upside down when you switch the lights on and you can't get them any more someone will create an aftermarket EUC that does it.
I don't know what sort of security and anti-tampering tech is used in the automotive sector but I could easilly see it becoming impossible to repair certain cars if the ECU has failed or something like that.
In other stuff (like mobile phones and game consoles) locked bootloaders, code-signing and physical anti-reverse engineering mechanisms are in place.
If the original manufacturer is unable or unwilling to help, then it's pretty much game over. Certificates expire, private keys get lost, source code and build tools get lost, the people who build them retire.
In other stuff (like mobile phones and game consoles) locked bootloaders, code-signing and physical anti-reverse engineering mechanisms are in place.
If the original manufacturer is unable or unwilling to help, then it's pretty much game over. Certificates expire, private keys get lost, source code and build tools get lost, the people who build them retire.
Ferraris for instance got beyond the capabilities of good amateur mechanics after the 355/360. F1 gearboxes, double clutches,insane amounts of electronic ECUs at ludicrous prices have taken lots of cars out of the realms of hobbyists. My friend is an Audi Mastertech and he told me a story of a 4 year old R8 gearbox costing £22,000........ PLUS fitting........ I seem to recall also a car magazine ( Evo? ) advising not to buy an AMG C55 coupe because they were known for multiple ECU failure and many were only available new for £4k. They literally said buying one would be financial suicide at the time.
We appear to live in a throw away society fuelled by either PCP or rich folk, as the cars filter down through time you will have very deep pockets to run them..... Of course the McLaren will be a classic like all supercars in history, but running one will be a different matter.
We appear to live in a throw away society fuelled by either PCP or rich folk, as the cars filter down through time you will have very deep pockets to run them..... Of course the McLaren will be a classic like all supercars in history, but running one will be a different matter.
Will a McLaren 720s become a classic is an over-simplistic question.
On the one hand all cars which get to a certain age become eligible for classic-insurance so you could argue that everything becomes a classic in time.
On the other hand if you mean will a McLaren ever become a collector-car then the answer is a little more complex but generally some will and some won't and their will be lots of shades-of-gray in-between. This cherished super-low-mileage 720s' in a special edition spec will be more desirable (collectable) than those which are used and enjoyed but ultimately they will all become collectable to lessor or greater degree IMHO.
As for future maintenance, the same thing gets discussed every decade or every time there is a noticeable advancement in technology... 'who's going to maintain such complex cars in 20 years?' The reality is that it will be the people who are maintaining them now, they won't forget the technology and the equipment will still be about. Do we really think that the electronics in a 720s McLaren will be seen as complex in 20 years time? I'm sure after another 20 years of vehicle technology development, any of the current crop of cars including hybrid and EV's will be seen as old-school by the time we reach 2041.
The bigger concern is the ever-diminishing number of properly skilled artisans who can work on the really old stuff. Finding somebody who can set-up a line of twin-choke webers or who can make a new wing on a english wheel will get much harder than finding somebody who can mend and reprogram a defective circuit-board IMHO
On the one hand all cars which get to a certain age become eligible for classic-insurance so you could argue that everything becomes a classic in time.
On the other hand if you mean will a McLaren ever become a collector-car then the answer is a little more complex but generally some will and some won't and their will be lots of shades-of-gray in-between. This cherished super-low-mileage 720s' in a special edition spec will be more desirable (collectable) than those which are used and enjoyed but ultimately they will all become collectable to lessor or greater degree IMHO.
As for future maintenance, the same thing gets discussed every decade or every time there is a noticeable advancement in technology... 'who's going to maintain such complex cars in 20 years?' The reality is that it will be the people who are maintaining them now, they won't forget the technology and the equipment will still be about. Do we really think that the electronics in a 720s McLaren will be seen as complex in 20 years time? I'm sure after another 20 years of vehicle technology development, any of the current crop of cars including hybrid and EV's will be seen as old-school by the time we reach 2041.
The bigger concern is the ever-diminishing number of properly skilled artisans who can work on the really old stuff. Finding somebody who can set-up a line of twin-choke webers or who can make a new wing on a english wheel will get much harder than finding somebody who can mend and reprogram a defective circuit-board IMHO
//j17 said:
The Surveyor said:
Finding somebody who...can make a new wing on a english wheel will get much harder...
Or "Finding someone with an autoclave who can lay up a new carbon fibre wing" for the McLaren.The Surveyor said:
I genuinely think the number of people being able to repair composites and carbon fibre will only increase, in the same way there will be more and more options for battery repair for EV's, or people who can replace dashboard display screen etc etc . There will always be people offering new services to support modern technology, but the point I was making is that those artisan skills needed on 1950's classics will only diminish.
There already are lots of people capable of repairing composites - in many ways its easier than say an ally panel. Display screens are no problem either. The difficulty will be with software and ECUs in part because the sofware in production cars is far more complex with far more functions than simple race car fuelling only system and in part because the EU is making sure that software in modern ECUs cant be accessed outside the car factory. Then you have the problem of the base ECU being replaced with a new op system which wont be compatible with old software just like your W10 system isnt compatible with lots of old third party accessory drivers.Finally as I found with a boat radar, many modern electronics are made using surface mount technology together with one off components. The days when you could solder up a replace using standard bits from RS components and a piece of circuit board are gone. And in the case of the boat radar that was after only 8 years from manufacture!
The Surveyor said:
//j17 said:
The Surveyor said:
Finding somebody who...can make a new wing on a english wheel will get much harder...
Or "Finding someone with an autoclave who can lay up a new carbon fibre wing" for the McLaren.I actually know a few people that have sold classics from the late 80's era, because of parts problems, mostly electronic parts, but not always, and have gone back to simpler pre-70's era classic ownership as easier to look after.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff