Importing a non running classic from Italy, help please!
Discussion
I’ve had a look at previous threads and cant find an exact answer. Any help gratefully received!
I’ve purchased a very non running 1960’s Fiat 500 from Italy from a friend of a friend.
I’m looking to go over and pick it up at the end of April, drive it back on a trailer. I’m unsure of what paperwork I will need, if any, to bring it back? It’s been de-registered in Italy. So has no plates. It’s going straight into storage once back in the UK. A lot of the gov websites give detail on how to import a running or licensed vehicle.
This is essentially a pile of parts and rust in the basic form of a car, so it’s difficult to know how to categorise it!
Can anyone offer some info on what paperwork I will need if/when challenged at the border(s)?
I’ve purchased a very non running 1960’s Fiat 500 from Italy from a friend of a friend.
I’m looking to go over and pick it up at the end of April, drive it back on a trailer. I’m unsure of what paperwork I will need, if any, to bring it back? It’s been de-registered in Italy. So has no plates. It’s going straight into storage once back in the UK. A lot of the gov websites give detail on how to import a running or licensed vehicle.
This is essentially a pile of parts and rust in the basic form of a car, so it’s difficult to know how to categorise it!
Can anyone offer some info on what paperwork I will need if/when challenged at the border(s)?
You also need to think about the paperwork you will need to give to DVLA when (or if) you ever intend on registering it in the UK, especially as its been de-registered in Italy. Lots of photo's of it in Italy, copies of any Italian registrations and documents etc.
Make sure it's got its VIN plates and ID on it, otherwise you'll have a hell of a job getting it registered with DVLA in the future, and you'll need to keep the NOVA import stuff which I assume you'll now need as we are no longer in EU...?
Make sure it's got its VIN plates and ID on it, otherwise you'll have a hell of a job getting it registered with DVLA in the future, and you'll need to keep the NOVA import stuff which I assume you'll now need as we are no longer in EU...?
It is quite a lot you have to consider:
You need
a proper buying contract which has to include all information from seller, buyer, item of contract, VIN, day of transfer of ownership, both SEPA informations, and this has to be notarized, otherwise you can not take the car outside Italy without lots of problems at the border...
Carta di circolazione (“libretto”) – Italian registration, which should include the future transfer of the car to its new home, called demolizione (end of registry in Italy and transfer outside Italy). There you definitely need professional help of a specialised carrier, to do it on your own it could end up in tears (ask me...), BTW car and plates are married until the final day, the plates can be taken abroad but need to be sent back for the final sign off of the car in Italy.
Certificato di Proprietà, the official chart registry of the province the car was registered. This is a must and sometimes a real pita to get privately.
As Italians have their issues with the taxman, the authorities take great care to have this monitored thoroughly, as well as no cash payment for the car above 2k €, everything should be via bank transfer.
In the end it's fun, but sometimes I understand my italian friends who would never consider a car buying experience from a private party, as Italy is one of the most bureaucratic countries in the world...
You need
a proper buying contract which has to include all information from seller, buyer, item of contract, VIN, day of transfer of ownership, both SEPA informations, and this has to be notarized, otherwise you can not take the car outside Italy without lots of problems at the border...
Carta di circolazione (“libretto”) – Italian registration, which should include the future transfer of the car to its new home, called demolizione (end of registry in Italy and transfer outside Italy). There you definitely need professional help of a specialised carrier, to do it on your own it could end up in tears (ask me...), BTW car and plates are married until the final day, the plates can be taken abroad but need to be sent back for the final sign off of the car in Italy.
Certificato di Proprietà, the official chart registry of the province the car was registered. This is a must and sometimes a real pita to get privately.
As Italians have their issues with the taxman, the authorities take great care to have this monitored thoroughly, as well as no cash payment for the car above 2k €, everything should be via bank transfer.
In the end it's fun, but sometimes I understand my italian friends who would never consider a car buying experience from a private party, as Italy is one of the most bureaucratic countries in the world...
Thanks for the detailed response. Sounds like a lot of faff for a car that not really worth a lot! I’ve only paid €600 for the thing. Though I have a feeling it may be better to leave it there as the hassle is starting to look like it’s not worth it. I thought I might get away without any hassle at the Italian border, the last few times I’ve driven there, there hasn’t really been one!
Dare I ask what happened in your situation?
Dare I ask what happened in your situation?
I underestimated the amount of time you need, and the unbelievable bureaucracy you are faced with, it took ages for all the documents to be presented, and of course I did not notarize the contract.
So then was stopped at the border not to continue my travel with the car on trailer. As it was not too far from the border, we returned and it took three days (and the weekend) to get everything organised with professional help.
My good buy was not so cheap after that!
It may help to know some people who know people, and to speak some Italian, but lessons learned and prices paid.
So then was stopped at the border not to continue my travel with the car on trailer. As it was not too far from the border, we returned and it took three days (and the weekend) to get everything organised with professional help.
My good buy was not so cheap after that!
It may help to know some people who know people, and to speak some Italian, but lessons learned and prices paid.
Charmless man said:
I thought I might get away without any hassle at the Italian border, the last few times I’ve driven there, there hasn’t really been one!
Except, you would then have no paperwork to import and register it (eventually) here in UK.So, unless it was going to be a 'parts car' and not intended to register in UK, there would be no point in doing that.
aeropilot said:
Charmless man said:
I thought I might get away without any hassle at the Italian border, the last few times I’ve driven there, there hasn’t really been one!
Except, you would then have no paperwork to import and register it (eventually) here in UK.So, unless it was going to be a 'parts car' and not intended to register in UK, there would be no point in doing that.
I think the main point is, the car has been de-registered. So I won’t be able to do most of the things you say, regarding returning plates etc. When I don’t have them.
I can prove ownership via signed receipts etc. Not sure how I can gather some of the documents mentioned when the car doesn’t isn’t registered.
I can prove ownership via signed receipts etc. Not sure how I can gather some of the documents mentioned when the car doesn’t isn’t registered.
Common sense would say that a de-registered car is not a car - and therefore it could leave Italy without any paperwork (but an invoice would be essential to show who the owner is and not stolen).
Unless things in the UK have changed drastically, registration involves an MOT on the VIN. Prove when it was manufactured (letter from manufacturer) and get an age related plate - if you don't it will get a Q plate.
caziques said:
Unless things in the UK have changed drastically, registration involves an MOT on the VIN. Prove when it was manufactured (letter from manufacturer) and get an age related plate - if you don't it will get a Q plate.
Yes things have changed, and its a lot harder, as DVLA are being a lot stricter with issuing V5's and wanting lots of support documentation including the import documentation (don't forget we are not in EU anymore) and sometimes sending out inspectors to do a report. That's why an intact never removed VIN plate is essential. I know someone who was refused a V5 by DVLA after they sent out an inspector, on an imported immaculate older restored car (with full photographic record) as the VIN tag had been removed during restoration, and re-attached after painting..... DVLA refused to issue a V5 after inspection.......owner now has £75k's worth of 'yard art' instead.
aeropilot said:
caziques said:
Unless things in the UK have changed drastically, registration involves an MOT on the VIN. Prove when it was manufactured (letter from manufacturer) and get an age related plate - if you don't it will get a Q plate.
Yes things have changed, and its a lot harder, as DVLA are being a lot stricter with issuing V5's and wanting lots of support documentation including the import documentation (don't forget we are not in EU anymore) and sometimes sending out inspectors to do a report. That's why an intact never removed VIN plate is essential. I know someone who was refused a V5 by DVLA after they sent out an inspector, on an imported immaculate older restored car (with full photographic record) as the VIN tag had been removed during restoration, and re-attached after painting..... DVLA refused to issue a V5 after inspection.......owner now has £75k's worth of 'yard art' instead.
The panel was beyond saving, and needed replacing, but there was an issue with removing the VIN plate.
They contacted the relevant DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) department, to verify what the rules were in regards to the VIN plate.
The information they got back was, if the factory rivets holding the plate onto the panel showed signs of having been tampered with in any way, then the car would be deemed to no longer exist, and could not be registered ever again.
They asked if they could take the VIN plate off by cutting the metal around the plate, and then weld the plate/section of panel into a replacement panel.
They were told that, so long as the rivets weren't disturbed or tampered with, then it wouldn't be a problem.
Dan Short, the owner of the garage, was incredulous about the fact that you could cut the VIN plate out and weld it back in, with no problems, but if you touched the rivets, the car would no longer be road legal ever again.
They cut the VIN plate out, fitted the replacement panel to the car, cut a square out of the new panel, and carefully welded the VIN plate back in, making sure it looked perfect, and, making sure no one disturbed the rivets!
4rephill said:
I remember watching an episode of FantomWorks where they were working on a late 60's/early 70's muscle car, that had severe corrosion on the panel that the VIN plate was attached to.
The panel was beyond saving, and needed replacing, but there was an issue with removing the VIN plate.
They contacted the relevant DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) department, to verify what the rules were in regards to the VIN plate.
The information they got back was, if the factory rivets holding the plate onto the panel showed signs of having been tampered with in any way, then the car would be deemed to no longer exist, and could not be registered ever again.
They asked if they could take the VIN plate off by cutting the metal around the plate, and then weld the plate/section of panel into a replacement panel.
They were told that, so long as the rivets weren't disturbed or tampered with, then it wouldn't be a problem.
Dan Short, the owner of the garage, was incredulous about the fact that you could cut the VIN plate out and weld it back in, with no problems, but if you touched the rivets, the car would no longer be road legal ever again.
They cut the VIN plate out, fitted the replacement panel to the car, cut a square out of the new panel, and carefully welded the VIN plate back in, making sure it looked perfect, and, making sure no one disturbed the rivets!
It's actually a felony offense over there to tamper with/remove a factory affixed VIN plate, you can do jail time for doing it!!The panel was beyond saving, and needed replacing, but there was an issue with removing the VIN plate.
They contacted the relevant DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) department, to verify what the rules were in regards to the VIN plate.
The information they got back was, if the factory rivets holding the plate onto the panel showed signs of having been tampered with in any way, then the car would be deemed to no longer exist, and could not be registered ever again.
They asked if they could take the VIN plate off by cutting the metal around the plate, and then weld the plate/section of panel into a replacement panel.
They were told that, so long as the rivets weren't disturbed or tampered with, then it wouldn't be a problem.
Dan Short, the owner of the garage, was incredulous about the fact that you could cut the VIN plate out and weld it back in, with no problems, but if you touched the rivets, the car would no longer be road legal ever again.
They cut the VIN plate out, fitted the replacement panel to the car, cut a square out of the new panel, and carefully welded the VIN plate back in, making sure it looked perfect, and, making sure no one disturbed the rivets!
SEMA are currently working to try and change the wording of the law to allow for removal and re-afixing during a documented restoration.
See here for an interesting story on the subject and what they are trying to do about it.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/car-restorers...
This is why the owner of the car I mentioned is stuck as it was a US restoration, and DVLA are aware of the law, hence refusing to give a V5.
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