AC Cobra continuation question
Discussion
Hi all,
Wasn't too sure the best place to post this one.
I'm writing some info on the continuation Cobra's (AC Cobras) and need some help with dates.
The internet is throwing all sorts of dates at me, so need some help.
Did the MkIV start in 1982 and end in 1994? if so was there any factory AC Cobras made from 1994-2005 (late 90's 212 S/C or CSR - have seen these, are they not factory built MkIV's?)
Did the MkV start in 2005 and end in 2007? were there no 2007-2009 Cobra's, if so what Mk are these?
Is the Mk VI due in 2010?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Mike
Wasn't too sure the best place to post this one.
I'm writing some info on the continuation Cobra's (AC Cobras) and need some help with dates.
The internet is throwing all sorts of dates at me, so need some help.
Did the MkIV start in 1982 and end in 1994? if so was there any factory AC Cobras made from 1994-2005 (late 90's 212 S/C or CSR - have seen these, are they not factory built MkIV's?)
Did the MkV start in 2005 and end in 2007? were there no 2007-2009 Cobra's, if so what Mk are these?
Is the Mk VI due in 2010?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Mike
Hi there, I think it would help if you were more specific about the actual Cobras you were looking for information on.
There is a difference between the Shelby continuation series of CSX 4000, 7000 and 8000 cars and the older AC licenced Brian Angliss Autokraft cars which you refer to as the Mk IV. There is also a whole plethora of spin off "continuation" cars alledgedly of AC or Shelby origin from the late 80s early 90s. Are you trying to follow the AC or the Shelby heritage line, because several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence.
Personaly I think the only ones worth chronicling are the original AC/Shelby Ford collaboration cars from the 60s because that's where it all started.
Sorry if this was'nt much help but you are asking for information about the most continued "continuation" car in the world so it probably helps to narrow it down a bit.
There is a difference between the Shelby continuation series of CSX 4000, 7000 and 8000 cars and the older AC licenced Brian Angliss Autokraft cars which you refer to as the Mk IV. There is also a whole plethora of spin off "continuation" cars alledgedly of AC or Shelby origin from the late 80s early 90s. Are you trying to follow the AC or the Shelby heritage line, because several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence.
Personaly I think the only ones worth chronicling are the original AC/Shelby Ford collaboration cars from the 60s because that's where it all started.
Sorry if this was'nt much help but you are asking for information about the most continued "continuation" car in the world so it probably helps to narrow it down a bit.
Hi Bigblock,
Thanks for the reply. I'm only after basic dates for the authorised MkIV AC Cobras. As you mentioned "several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence" so after a few hours on the net this morning I've decided to just mention the following:
The MkIV's were built as follows: 1982-1986 by the Hurlock Family, 1986-1994 by Brian Angliss of Autokraft (along with Ford Motor Co until Brian bought Ford's interest out in 1992) and by the AC Cars Group Ltd between 1996/97-2002. Also to note are Carroll Shelby's authorised continuation Cobras with serial numbers starting with CSX4000, CSX6000, CSX7000 and CSX8000.
It's just a rough brief history I'm after of authorised Cobras that are basically not considered replicas (I know that is one for argument).
Cheers
Thanks for the reply. I'm only after basic dates for the authorised MkIV AC Cobras. As you mentioned "several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence" so after a few hours on the net this morning I've decided to just mention the following:
The MkIV's were built as follows: 1982-1986 by the Hurlock Family, 1986-1994 by Brian Angliss of Autokraft (along with Ford Motor Co until Brian bought Ford's interest out in 1992) and by the AC Cars Group Ltd between 1996/97-2002. Also to note are Carroll Shelby's authorised continuation Cobras with serial numbers starting with CSX4000, CSX6000, CSX7000 and CSX8000.
It's just a rough brief history I'm after of authorised Cobras that are basically not considered replicas (I know that is one for argument).
Cheers
bigblock said:
Hi there, I think it would help if you were more specific about the actual Cobras you were looking for information on.
There is a difference between the Shelby continuation series of CSX 4000, 7000 and 8000 cars and the older AC licenced Brian Angliss Autokraft cars which you refer to as the Mk IV. There is also a whole plethora of spin off "continuation" cars alledgedly of AC or Shelby origin from the late 80s early 90s. Are you trying to follow the AC or the Shelby heritage line, because several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence.
Personaly I think the only ones worth chronicling are the original AC/Shelby Ford collaboration cars from the 60s because that's where it all started.
Sorry if this was'nt much help but you are asking for information about the most continued "continuation" car in the world so it probably helps to narrow it down a bit.
There is a difference between the Shelby continuation series of CSX 4000, 7000 and 8000 cars and the older AC licenced Brian Angliss Autokraft cars which you refer to as the Mk IV. There is also a whole plethora of spin off "continuation" cars alledgedly of AC or Shelby origin from the late 80s early 90s. Are you trying to follow the AC or the Shelby heritage line, because several cars have been built over the last 40 years using these two iconic names under licence.
Personaly I think the only ones worth chronicling are the original AC/Shelby Ford collaboration cars from the 60s because that's where it all started.
Sorry if this was'nt much help but you are asking for information about the most continued "continuation" car in the world so it probably helps to narrow it down a bit.
Edited by MikePCG on Tuesday 18th August 22:47
Hi Hot Metal,
Cheers for you input, hopefully I've got most of what I was after covered now, unless someone tells me otherwise, it's just a brief description of dates and who did what.
Cheers
Cheers for you input, hopefully I've got most of what I was after covered now, unless someone tells me otherwise, it's just a brief description of dates and who did what.
Cheers
hot metal said:
Maybe you could contact Rod Leach of Nostalgia, Im sure he could help. he`s been selling Cobras for decades and was an Autocraft dealer I believe 
Hi Mike, that looks like a pretty good summary of the continuation scene.
For what it's worth I would say that Shelbys efforts are probably closer to the original concept than the softer Mk IVs made under the AC name. Kirkham cars should get an honourable mention for doing an extremely authentic reproduction with an aluminium body which the MkIVs also have but the Shelbys do not. Shelby makes up for this by manufacturing his own all aluminium bigblock 427 engine. At the end of the day it does'nt really matter who made your Cobra, if it does'nt have a 427 bigblock then it is not a 427 Cobra is it.
Regards, Doug.
For what it's worth I would say that Shelbys efforts are probably closer to the original concept than the softer Mk IVs made under the AC name. Kirkham cars should get an honourable mention for doing an extremely authentic reproduction with an aluminium body which the MkIVs also have but the Shelbys do not. Shelby makes up for this by manufacturing his own all aluminium bigblock 427 engine. At the end of the day it does'nt really matter who made your Cobra, if it does'nt have a 427 bigblock then it is not a 427 Cobra is it.
Regards, Doug.
Thanks bigblock,
Nice Cobra you've got there by the way.
Yeh, could mention lots of nice Cobra makers I suppose. I used to be a member of The Cobra Replica Club, looked at all the different manufacturers of kits and had great discussions with Peter Jones from the club (great info and nice chap), but due to my fathers death just after joining didn't get round to purchasing a kit. And yes a 427 is the way to go for that authentic 60's Shelby Cobra.
That aside, I have a hobby website were I write about cars and related subjects. I give as much performance info as I can on each car covered and basic data without too much writing (too many cars to cover), so it's always a challenge for many cars (some very confusing and varied histories) to keep the info to a minimum and still get most info across for the readers to follow up if they wish. Plus the info on the internet has to be taken with a pinch of salt, making it difficult to write accurate info.
Anyway thanks again for your input Doug,
Cheers
Mike
Nice Cobra you've got there by the way.
Yeh, could mention lots of nice Cobra makers I suppose. I used to be a member of The Cobra Replica Club, looked at all the different manufacturers of kits and had great discussions with Peter Jones from the club (great info and nice chap), but due to my fathers death just after joining didn't get round to purchasing a kit. And yes a 427 is the way to go for that authentic 60's Shelby Cobra.
That aside, I have a hobby website were I write about cars and related subjects. I give as much performance info as I can on each car covered and basic data without too much writing (too many cars to cover), so it's always a challenge for many cars (some very confusing and varied histories) to keep the info to a minimum and still get most info across for the readers to follow up if they wish. Plus the info on the internet has to be taken with a pinch of salt, making it difficult to write accurate info.
Anyway thanks again for your input Doug,
Cheers
Mike
Edited by MikePCG on Wednesday 19th August 10:45
Pardon me looking from the outside, but surely the purer Cobras are the 289s and not the 427s? Here at Le Mans there is someone who signed a contract with Carroll Shelby to manufacture six Daytonas but he had to build them from original Cobra 289s. All six are now built and the contract finished. This photo shows an "iffy" Cobra and two of the converted real ones. This off track although perhaps of interest but I am confused as to why only the 427 big block replicas could be considered real replicas. I also believe (but I am probably wrong) that there is an FIA paper problem with the big block cars for racing purposes? Perhaps you could enlighten me here.
Hi Lowdrag,
Sorry, I realise what I've written as regards the 427. What I meant was with Carrol Shelby's original 427 having the impact it did back in 1964 (beating Ferrari) and creating an amazing 0-100-0 time of around 12.4 secs back in 1965 and with it's wider more aggressive stance, agreed with bigblock about it's desire to many car enthusiasts including myself. All good Cobra's original, continuation or replica deserve a mention here, I wasn't suggesting that a 427 was the only real deal, after all the 289 did appear a few years before the 427.
FIA: I'm not really into motor sport TBH, only road going cars, however I did come across this http://www.xs4all.nl/~luukb/history.html
Regards
Mike
Sorry, I realise what I've written as regards the 427. What I meant was with Carrol Shelby's original 427 having the impact it did back in 1964 (beating Ferrari) and creating an amazing 0-100-0 time of around 12.4 secs back in 1965 and with it's wider more aggressive stance, agreed with bigblock about it's desire to many car enthusiasts including myself. All good Cobra's original, continuation or replica deserve a mention here, I wasn't suggesting that a 427 was the only real deal, after all the 289 did appear a few years before the 427.
FIA: I'm not really into motor sport TBH, only road going cars, however I did come across this http://www.xs4all.nl/~luukb/history.html
Regards
Mike
Edited by MikePCG on Wednesday 19th August 19:53
lowdrag said:
Pardon me looking from the outside, but surely the purer Cobras are the 289s and not the 427s? Here at Le Mans there is someone who signed a contract with Carroll Shelby to manufacture six Daytonas but he had to build them from original Cobra 289s. All six are now built and the contract finished. This photo shows an "iffy" Cobra and two of the converted real ones. This off track although perhaps of interest but I am confused as to why only the 427 big block replicas could be considered real replicas. I also believe (but I am probably wrong) that there is an FIA paper problem with the big block cars for racing purposes? Perhaps you could enlighten me here.
Hello Lowdrag,In my previous post I mentioned that in my opinion a 427 replica should realy have a 427 engine otherwise it is perhaps missing the point of what it is trying to replicate. I did'nt mention the 289 because the OPs question related to the 427. I would certainly never say that one is better than the other (beauty is in the eye of etc etc). However I think that if it is a 289 replica then a 289 engine would be the prefered option. Obviously if ones goal is merely to recreate the shape of a 427 or 289 then whatever underpins it and powers it may not be that important.
With regards to the big block cars and FIA homologation I believe that the new generation of 427 "recreation" engine blocks is causing the problem as these are far more advanced ie stronger than the originals and allow the engines to produce far more horse power. Because there was very little information recorded by Shelby with regard to engine numbers and block casting numbers it is very dificult to verify if a car is running an authentic FE block or not, thus giving an unfair advantage to those who are not.
I am by no means an expert in this field just an interested onlooker who has picked up a bit of information here and there.
Out of interest why do you call the Cobra in your photo "iffy".
Well, it looks and smells like an original but I found out it has some original parts but hasn't got a correct chassis number, so in truth is a replica even though it has an original 289 engine and gearbox! In that photo all the cars except two belong to the garage owner, those being the centre Cobra and my D type which they had repaired following an accident. On the right is his GT40 being rebuilt and he has another store where his Ecurie Ecosse 1955 D type lives and quite a few other cars including the Pescarolo Lotus 6 and another - real - Cobra he races. Quite an Aladdin's Cave!
lowdrag said:
Pardon me looking from the outside, but surely the purer Cobras are the 289s and not the 427s?
Purer in what sense? The original 260 Cobras, and then 289 Cobra's were essentially just re-engined AC Ace's, where'as the 427 could be described as 'purer', in that it had a whole new bespoke tube chassis designed with the aid of Ford's new computer.It was just that the 289 powered cars had a more prolific race heritage, because Ford went over to the GT before the 427's were able to make any significant impactin competition, but whether that makes them purer or not is another matter.
Shelby started a Super Coupe based on the new 427 chassis with a FE but it was effectively superceeded by the Ford GT program.
lowdrag said:
I also believe (but I am probably wrong) that there is an FIA paper problem with the big block cars for racing purposes? Perhaps you could enlighten me here.
As hinted maybe because the 'new' alloy block engines if used aren't original, as the side-oilers back in the sixties were all iron blocks.And don't forget most 'production' 427 Cobra's except the first batch and the S/C's actually had a 428PI spec FE not a side-oiler 427.
Also, the 6 Daytona Coupe's were never 100% FIA legal back in the 1960's, so how that works today is another matter
Thanks for explaining the finer details. I'm very much as a Jaguar person but this subject interested me. A detailed answer. Incidentally, French law is so strict that getting replicas registered here is very difficult, if not impossible. For my Lynx D type, for example, they insisted that it underwent the crash test for homologation - at my expense of course. Needless to say it has remained on british plates. Here there is only one homologated Cobra copy and that is a Martin, a horrible fibreglass concoction with a Mondeo V6 motor.
If I may:
Famous HEM6 by Bryant.
The 289 is in fact a beautifull car and I did not realise this to the fullest until I saw 'real' ones racing at the Spa track.
I've - we've - seen 1000s of reps and based our opinion / view on those. Instead on the real ones.
Dutch Cob leaning in.
It's so silly to see a 427 badge on an RV8 engined Dax BTW . . .
Anyways:
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=47&i=1728...
Now that's quite a rep.
Famous HEM6 by Bryant.
The 289 is in fact a beautifull car and I did not realise this to the fullest until I saw 'real' ones racing at the Spa track.
I've - we've - seen 1000s of reps and based our opinion / view on those. Instead on the real ones.
Dutch Cob leaning in.
It's so silly to see a 427 badge on an RV8 engined Dax BTW . . .
Anyways:
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=47&i=1728...
Now that's quite a rep.
dinkel said:
It's so silly to see a 427 badge on an RV8 engined Dax BTW . . .
Indeed. And added to which 95% of Cobra 'replica' kit cars are just not accurate in so many ways. But, they serve a purpose for those that don't mind that.I seriously toyed with building one a few years back, but, the most affordable and accurate kit I could find is from ERA in the USA, and on investigation, it seems that you'd just never get one of those through SVA or whatever it called now, so I kicked that idea into touch.
Interesting thread, strange that the 'iffy' Cobra 427 shown has a 289 fitted..?
As Dinkel mentions, the Ram chassis makes for a Cob that HANDLES, bit unfair to suggest that the Dax does not, these may not have a spaceframe but use Jaguar suspension and just need correct set up of camber/caster angles etc, use adjustable Gaz dampers.
Although the fabulous 427/428 FE motor is mounted well back, steering/balance with these will never be as nice as in a car using the lighter 289/302/351 motors.
The Kirkham is a nice piece of kit,the ultimate replica.
As Dinkel mentions, the Ram chassis makes for a Cob that HANDLES, bit unfair to suggest that the Dax does not, these may not have a spaceframe but use Jaguar suspension and just need correct set up of camber/caster angles etc, use adjustable Gaz dampers.
Although the fabulous 427/428 FE motor is mounted well back, steering/balance with these will never be as nice as in a car using the lighter 289/302/351 motors.
The Kirkham is a nice piece of kit,the ultimate replica.
I'm certainly not a Cobra aficionado but to my eyes the Cobra 289 is the best looking of the bunch. It appears to subtly smooth and improve upon the lines of the Ace whilst resisting the overblown inflated look of the later Cobras and clones.
Assuming this is a typical Cobra 289 that is
Assuming this is a typical Cobra 289 that is
runt said:
Interesting thread, strange that the 'iffy' Cobra 427 shown has a 289 fitted..?
Indeed, although of course AC did make 27(?) AC MkIII cars which were 427 chassis and bodied cars fitted with 289 engines all assembled here at Thames Ditton with COB chassis numbers rather than CSX numbers. However, all the C/S 427 type extras are wrong for a replica of these, which otherwise looked like 'street' spec 427's but with wire wheels.
runt said:
The Kirkham is a nice piece of kit,the ultimate replica.
I still think (especially for the money) the ERA replicas are as godd as you can get, just a pity it would impossible to get one on the road in the UK. Check this link for a comparison of a ERA and the real thing
http://www.erareplicas.com/cars/669/index.htm
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