koenig specials
Discussion
1991 bmw 850i e31 koenig specials. Whats it worth??
I am looking for value agreed classic insurance.
who is recognised by the insurers to give a agreed value?
The car apparently 1 of 3 in the world RHD'S
The only 1 in the UK.
the car was £68.000 new in 1991. 1993 a full wide body kit was fitted. today the kit is in excess of 20.000 euro add the cost of 4 wide wheels and the fitting and a respray then your looking at £100.000
I am looking for value agreed classic insurance.
who is recognised by the insurers to give a agreed value?
The car apparently 1 of 3 in the world RHD'S
The only 1 in the UK.
the car was £68.000 new in 1991. 1993 a full wide body kit was fitted. today the kit is in excess of 20.000 euro add the cost of 4 wide wheels and the fitting and a respray then your looking at £100.000
Didn't you ask about this a little while ago?
Would it be better to continue posting in the same thread.
I still don't have any idea about values. Since they are so rare you aren't going to find a "Koenig" specialist who sells these the whole time. I guess you'd be best off talking to people who do specialise in BMW 850s and get their opinion. 80/90s stuff seems to be in fashion. Someone in the trade must have an opinion. Where did you buy the car? Would the insurance company accept them as a valuer?
Are the cars more common in Germany? Maybe there is a large market there and so a greater chance of finding someone with a real knowledge of them.
Would it be better to continue posting in the same thread.
I still don't have any idea about values. Since they are so rare you aren't going to find a "Koenig" specialist who sells these the whole time. I guess you'd be best off talking to people who do specialise in BMW 850s and get their opinion. 80/90s stuff seems to be in fashion. Someone in the trade must have an opinion. Where did you buy the car? Would the insurance company accept them as a valuer?
Are the cars more common in Germany? Maybe there is a large market there and so a greater chance of finding someone with a real knowledge of them.
a8hex said:
Didn't you ask about this a little while ago?
Would it be better to continue posting in the same thread.
I still don't have any idea about values. Since they are so rare you aren't going to find a "Koenig" specialist who sells these the whole time. I guess you'd be best off talking to people who do specialise in BMW 850s and get their opinion. 80/90s stuff seems to be in fashion. Someone in the trade must have an opinion. Where did you buy the car? Would the insurance company accept them as a valuer?
Are the cars more common in Germany? Maybe there is a large market there and so a greater chance of finding someone with a real knowledge of them.
Hi; the first time I posted I was asking (is it a classic) the responce was yes, So now I am trying to get it insured.Would it be better to continue posting in the same thread.
I still don't have any idea about values. Since they are so rare you aren't going to find a "Koenig" specialist who sells these the whole time. I guess you'd be best off talking to people who do specialise in BMW 850s and get their opinion. 80/90s stuff seems to be in fashion. Someone in the trade must have an opinion. Where did you buy the car? Would the insurance company accept them as a valuer?
Are the cars more common in Germany? Maybe there is a large market there and so a greater chance of finding someone with a real knowledge of them.
I have been told that there are 4 in Europe. A black one in france. A red one in Poland. A grey one in Rusia. The 4th I have no information on. Of cause they are all LHD.
I know that the Sultan Of Bruni had one in his collection. black- supercharged.
I have been told the remaining 2 RHD cars are not in the UK. Japan + New Zealand.
Is there anywhere cars like this can be valued? I have tried with various bmwforums but have been dissapointed with the lack of effort.
I have friends in Germany who have made contact with Koenig. Koenig Specials did not keep records on how many they made. unlike Alpina who modified the vin.
I have tried 8er.org, but so far no luck. Dave
The problem is that (unless you haven't mentioned them) it is a bog standard 850 under the Koenig skin. No engine mods, no suspension mods, no brake upgrades etc etc. In my eyes its not the body kit that adds the value, its the tuning. There are several manufactureres that make different body kits for the e31's, some of them wide bodied and they can be supplied and fitted for £2-3000.
The koenig 850 was never an iconic legendary car like, for example, the Koenig Ferrari.
The unfortunate thing is that the standard 850, unless in exceptional condition, is incredibly undervalued and available for a few thousand. If this car is a mint, superb example and drives like new, then I would hazard a guess at £12-15,000. If you can find that koenig crazy millionaire who needs one to complete his collection then, who knows!
If it has other mods, they will add significant value. Let me know and I'll try to value them.
The koenig 850 was never an iconic legendary car like, for example, the Koenig Ferrari.
The unfortunate thing is that the standard 850, unless in exceptional condition, is incredibly undervalued and available for a few thousand. If this car is a mint, superb example and drives like new, then I would hazard a guess at £12-15,000. If you can find that koenig crazy millionaire who needs one to complete his collection then, who knows!
If it has other mods, they will add significant value. Let me know and I'll try to value them.
the car has no supercharger. so yes it is a bog standard 850. the engine has been chiped wirh the limiter removed by koenig.IT balso has a 12% faster excelorating diff. It was in the pistonheads show this year and has been invited back this year . It has also been featured in june 2008 BMW performance magazine. I am not trying to sell this car just trying to get the proper value if totaled. there is a video on you tube BMW KOENIG. most of the naration is crap. it is not supercharged nor is it 6 ltr. the guy in the video sold the car to me then he posted the video .
he claims he still owns it. DAVE
he claims he still owns it. DAVE
hmm.. The delimited, mildly tuned chips are readily available at a low price so no great benefits there, although nice to have. The diff will be an e34 M5 limited slip diff. A useful increase in acceleration and makes the car feel 500lbs lighter! It also tightens the handling quite noticeably and stops the traction control from kicking in at every road junction, though your fatter tyres will help too. All in all, I'll stick to my original £12-15k insurance valuation.
Peter J Rice at 8er.org (Moderator) IS the valuer for the E31's at the BMW CAR CLUB where I am a member.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
Well, all I can say is that I've valued a few cars for agreed value insurance in my time and never had one questioned yet and I doubt Im on any 'approved' lists. If this chap at the club is THE valuer, best go by what he says. Obviously its tricky without seeing the car but, as I said, Im assuming that its mint and drives impeccably. Insurance companys usually ask for an agreed value from a restorer or specialist. Cars are only ever worth what someone will pay, not what someone would like for it!
As an example, the market for 850CSi's is fairly strong and a known quantity, thus the CSi's are a valuable commodity worth 2 or 3 times the value of a Ci. The value is primarily in the engine, unique to the CSi. Its a bit like the Porsche 356. Stick a 356 Carrera engine in the back and it will at least quadruple the value of the car.
The Koenig is an acquired taste with a more limited market. If it is replacement cost you want, then Koenig are the only boys to ask, seeing as it looks like you can't buy another.
As an example, the market for 850CSi's is fairly strong and a known quantity, thus the CSi's are a valuable commodity worth 2 or 3 times the value of a Ci. The value is primarily in the engine, unique to the CSi. Its a bit like the Porsche 356. Stick a 356 Carrera engine in the back and it will at least quadruple the value of the car.
The Koenig is an acquired taste with a more limited market. If it is replacement cost you want, then Koenig are the only boys to ask, seeing as it looks like you can't buy another.
Edited by Talkwrench on Saturday 24th October 18:58
Is there a Replacement Insurance Policy? maybe I'm going down the wrong road.
If KOENIG are the only people who can replace the car, then you are correct the value of the car is relative to there bill to replace it. THe car has a place in history. Only 1 in the UK.It would be nice if all the engine mods were on the car.But the original owner did not want them or could not afford them.Koenig have there own nosecone mod for the kidney grill area, My car dose not have it fitted. Like the original owner I prefer onlookers to know it's a BMW.
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/CyLoeFwI.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/v/RTzY4OxB.jpg" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/RTzY4OxB.jpg)
believed to be in Japan
If KOENIG are the only people who can replace the car, then you are correct the value of the car is relative to there bill to replace it. THe car has a place in history. Only 1 in the UK.It would be nice if all the engine mods were on the car.But the original owner did not want them or could not afford them.Koenig have there own nosecone mod for the kidney grill area, My car dose not have it fitted. Like the original owner I prefer onlookers to know it's a BMW.
believed to be in JapanI believe the law with regards car insurance claims is that you are entitled to be returned to the position you were in had the vehicle not been damaged.
However your 850 is effectively irreplaceable if destroyed, Koening would have to procure a similar vintage 850 (not expensive) and perform the conversion (very expensive) which they may not be inclined to do as I'm sure they have moved on. Your loss would be pretty much impossible to quantify.
If there is no public record of what these vehicles have ever re-sold for, you really are whistling in the wind.
An auctioneer should be able to advise on value as an auction is the only way you will find out what someone is willing to pay for it, and they will generally be accepted by an insurance company as knowing their stuff. I used to work for one of the larger firms and took a few cars in myself. I would be surprised if the value they can give was much above what was posted unless there was a good story particular to the car or something similar. It may be a rare machine but it has very limited appeal in the market place too.
Good luck!
However your 850 is effectively irreplaceable if destroyed, Koening would have to procure a similar vintage 850 (not expensive) and perform the conversion (very expensive) which they may not be inclined to do as I'm sure they have moved on. Your loss would be pretty much impossible to quantify.
If there is no public record of what these vehicles have ever re-sold for, you really are whistling in the wind.
An auctioneer should be able to advise on value as an auction is the only way you will find out what someone is willing to pay for it, and they will generally be accepted by an insurance company as knowing their stuff. I used to work for one of the larger firms and took a few cars in myself. I would be surprised if the value they can give was much above what was posted unless there was a good story particular to the car or something similar. It may be a rare machine but it has very limited appeal in the market place too.
Good luck!
OK. if I baught a e31 in good condition say £10.000 baught the koenig kit £20.000 wheels and tyres £5.000
Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
koenig d said:
OK. if I baught a e31 in good condition say £10.000 baught the koenig kit £20.000 wheels and tyres £5.000
Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
More realistic :-Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
Good 850 £9k, Wide body kit £3k, wheels & tyres £2.5k, diff £750, chips £250, top paint job £4k
Total £19.5k. Resale value £12-14k because its all new and shiny and thats what someone might pay.
You cant get a guaranteed 'replace like for like' policy. If the car can't be repaired, the car is written off and you get the agreed value. This is based on the most you could hope to get for the car.
The Koenig is rare and the name is recognised, which adds something, but the car isn't all new, fresh and just finished. So I stick to my original valuation of £12-15k.
Thursday 22nd October
I am confused, you say that you can not get a valuation on your vehicle from an authorative source but you then go on to say that you have a valuation from that very same source. You also say that you have had the valuation for 20 days.
You ask for the forums help in valuing your car yet refuse to disclose the purchase price or your recent valuation, not very helpful. It stikes me that you have vastly overpaid for your car hence your reluctance to reveal the figures or maybe you are just disapointed that no one else thinks it is worth as much as you do.
It may well be the only one in the UK but there are lots of examples of bodykitted specials from the nineties that people paid silly money for that are now worth a fraction of their original cost.
The insurance term of "betterment" means that any insurance paid out on the car should not place you in a better position than before the claim.
So if you are looking for a replacement car newly put together by Koenig from your insurance company you are dreaming. You will get the current market value for it, which is I suspect around the value you have already been given on this forum and from your expert valuer who you are sworn to secrecy not to tell us what he said !!!
koenig d said:
I have tried 8er.org, but so far no luck. Dave
Saturday 24th Octoberkoenig d said:
Peter J Rice at 8er.org (Moderator) IS the valuer for the E31's at the BMW CAR CLUB where I am a member.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
I am confused, you say that you can not get a valuation on your vehicle from an authorative source but you then go on to say that you have a valuation from that very same source. You also say that you have had the valuation for 20 days.
You ask for the forums help in valuing your car yet refuse to disclose the purchase price or your recent valuation, not very helpful. It stikes me that you have vastly overpaid for your car hence your reluctance to reveal the figures or maybe you are just disapointed that no one else thinks it is worth as much as you do.
It may well be the only one in the UK but there are lots of examples of bodykitted specials from the nineties that people paid silly money for that are now worth a fraction of their original cost.
The insurance term of "betterment" means that any insurance paid out on the car should not place you in a better position than before the claim.
So if you are looking for a replacement car newly put together by Koenig from your insurance company you are dreaming. You will get the current market value for it, which is I suspect around the value you have already been given on this forum and from your expert valuer who you are sworn to secrecy not to tell us what he said !!!
bigblock said:
Thursday 22nd October
I am confused, you say that you can not get a valuation on your vehicle from an authorative source but you then go on to say that you have a valuation from that very same source. You also say that you have had the valuation for 20 days.
You ask for the forums help in valuing your car yet refuse to disclose the purchase price or your recent valuation, not very helpful. It stikes me that you have vastly overpaid for your car hence your reluctance to reveal the figures or maybe you are just disapointed that no one else thinks it is worth as much as you do.
It may well be the only one in the UK but there are lots of examples of bodykitted specials from the nineties that people paid silly money for that are now worth a fraction of their original cost.
The insurance term of "betterment" means that any insurance paid out on the car should not place you in a better position than before the claim.
So if you are looking for a replacement car newly put together by Koenig from your insurance company you are dreaming. You will get the current market value for it, which is I suspect around the value you have already been given on this forum and from your expert valuer who you are sworn to secrecy not to tell us what he said !!!
There is no point in being cynical.koenig d said:
I have tried 8er.org, but so far no luck. Dave
Saturday 24th Octoberkoenig d said:
Peter J Rice at 8er.org (Moderator) IS the valuer for the E31's at the BMW CAR CLUB where I am a member.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
He valued the car 20 days ago.like yourself he valued the car without seeing it. although he has seen 10 pictures of the car and the letter of authenticity from Koenig. AT this moment I can't tell you the value that he gave over the phone. Untill the paperwork from bmw car club is in my posession. I am sworn to secrecy. I think he wants to lower his first guesstimate. thats why I am after a second opinion.
On rare cars like this an official valuer should vet the car. someone with recognition at the insurers.
I am confused, you say that you can not get a valuation on your vehicle from an authorative source but you then go on to say that you have a valuation from that very same source. You also say that you have had the valuation for 20 days.
You ask for the forums help in valuing your car yet refuse to disclose the purchase price or your recent valuation, not very helpful. It stikes me that you have vastly overpaid for your car hence your reluctance to reveal the figures or maybe you are just disapointed that no one else thinks it is worth as much as you do.
It may well be the only one in the UK but there are lots of examples of bodykitted specials from the nineties that people paid silly money for that are now worth a fraction of their original cost.
The insurance term of "betterment" means that any insurance paid out on the car should not place you in a better position than before the claim.
So if you are looking for a replacement car newly put together by Koenig from your insurance company you are dreaming. You will get the current market value for it, which is I suspect around the value you have already been given on this forum and from your expert valuer who you are sworn to secrecy not to tell us what he said !!!
I am trying to get the best policy with the best cover for my car.
Why is what I paid for the car of relevance? I have not refused to disclose the price I paid, I think it is irrelevant,
Until the people at 8er.org have done there homework I will not disclose either. I will say I was offered 3 times the best estimate suggested from a complete stranger at a Santa pod meeting this September. Obviously this BMW enthusiast had more money than sense.
To be fair, the first line of your post said "Whats it worth?", not "Where can I get insurance?"
It seems you've had two valuations now so you should have something to go on.
And, much as I love 850's, I'm afraid that if someone offered me 3 times what its worth, I'd have bitten his hand off and taken the cash there and then!
It seems you've had two valuations now so you should have something to go on.
And, much as I love 850's, I'm afraid that if someone offered me 3 times what its worth, I'd have bitten his hand off and taken the cash there and then!
Talkwrench said:
koenig d said:
OK. if I baught a e31 in good condition say £10.000 baught the koenig kit £20.000 wheels and tyres £5.000
Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
More realistic :-Diff £1.000 performance chips £500. Then paid for the body shop to do it's bit and a top paint job.
quick guess at total £40.000, ++++++ but no history.
IS the new car basicaly a kit car or a modifyied car ?
is the new car still worth £10.000?
Now I have my Newly modifyied car where can I get it insured, replaced like for like?
Good 850 £9k, Wide body kit £3k, wheels & tyres £2.5k, diff £750, chips £250, top paint job £4k
Total £19.5k. Resale value £12-14k because its all new and shiny and thats what someone might pay.
You cant get a guaranteed 'replace like for like' policy. If the car can't be repaired, the car is written off and you get the agreed value. This is based on the most you could hope to get for the car.
The Koenig is rare and the name is recognised, which adds something, but the car isn't all new, fresh and just finished. So I stick to my original valuation of £12-15k.
but you will not get a koenig kit for anything less than £22.000. If you know of an 850 kit for £3.000 please pass the link on to me. A pair of pirelli p zero 335/40/17 are £900.for the rear +268/50/17 £300. front
Koenig wheels are 980 euro each for the rear and 950 for the front.
I am not selling the car all I am trying to do is get a good policy with the agreed value.
THANKS again.
koenig d said:
TALKWRENCH; First thanks for the help!!!
but you will not get a koenig kit for anything less than £22.000. If you know of an 850 kit for £3.000 please pass the link on to me. A pair of pirelli p zero 335/40/17 are £900.for the rear +268/50/17 £300. front
Koenig wheels are 980 euro each for the rear and 950 for the front.
I am not selling the car all I am trying to do is get a good policy with the agreed value.
THANKS again.
I was referring to a wide body kit from one of the respected suppliers, not a Koenig kit specifically.but you will not get a koenig kit for anything less than £22.000. If you know of an 850 kit for £3.000 please pass the link on to me. A pair of pirelli p zero 335/40/17 are £900.for the rear +268/50/17 £300. front
Koenig wheels are 980 euro each for the rear and 950 for the front.
I am not selling the car all I am trying to do is get a good policy with the agreed value.
THANKS again.
Likewise, I was referring to deep dish alloys in general, not Koenig specifically. And the same goes for the tyres - careful shopping will turn up some much cheaper tyres. You can't build a genuine Koenig, just replicate it.
i know this is an old thread but i have read it and thought i have to add more silly talk to it lol,well i once had an r33 gtr skyline,over a period of 2 years i built up a nice stash of parts to which i was going to turn my gtr in to a 500bhp beast,the parts i had cost over £4k buying them from japan when the yen was at a good price so would proberly have cost double that buying from the uk,so i just needed bigger injectors get the parts fitted ecu mapped which i thought would be another £2k meantime i thought wat was my car worth ? maybe £10-£12k and wat with the parts fitted proberly £10-£12k and once i get my car up to 500bhp am going to spend and spend and proberly spend again but hay my car will still be worth £10-£12k crazey eh so that would be spending £6k on a car thats worth £10-£12k and its still worth £10-£12k,
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff