Moral dilema.... tax / DSS fraud...
Discussion
Ok, here is a good one. I am really in two minds about this. I dont know what to do.
A neighbour is currently defrauding the government (Inland Revenue, DSS and local council) out of between £250 - £350 per month at least. I know this for a fact as she seems to be proud of this, not sure why you would be of course.
Anyway, she is claiming tax credits when she shouldnt. She isnt other declaring earnings that she is getting and is currently defrauding her own company quite heavily (though this one I am not sure how much is involved).
Turns out she is a director in a small company who also does the payroll. By doing this she is reports the wrong salary to earn below the limit for tax credits, but uses the company credit card to buy shopping etc. Then puts through false expense claims to "top-up" her earnings. Oh, and claims single person council tax status when she has her boyfriend living with her - and I mean living with her, not just staying every other night!
There is a whole load of other stuff too; her total earnings are well over £30k but claims poverty. She has no mortgage since this is paid for by "mummy" and her new car was also bought by "mummy" - but this is an aside.
So, what would you do? Its not a huge amount and in reality its small beer in comparison to the large scale frauds that go on day in and day out. But it just depresses me that someone can get away with this for so long, taking money from the government which should be used for the really needy. I mean, we pay enough in taxes and we dont need sponging gits like this bleeding the system for us all....
But, its a neighbour - and a close one at that. My life could be made VERY difficult if it ever got out any grass was me. One side of me says "shop the miserable bitch" while the other says "think of your kids".....
I am at a loss - what would you do?
A neighbour is currently defrauding the government (Inland Revenue, DSS and local council) out of between £250 - £350 per month at least. I know this for a fact as she seems to be proud of this, not sure why you would be of course.
Anyway, she is claiming tax credits when she shouldnt. She isnt other declaring earnings that she is getting and is currently defrauding her own company quite heavily (though this one I am not sure how much is involved).
Turns out she is a director in a small company who also does the payroll. By doing this she is reports the wrong salary to earn below the limit for tax credits, but uses the company credit card to buy shopping etc. Then puts through false expense claims to "top-up" her earnings. Oh, and claims single person council tax status when she has her boyfriend living with her - and I mean living with her, not just staying every other night!
There is a whole load of other stuff too; her total earnings are well over £30k but claims poverty. She has no mortgage since this is paid for by "mummy" and her new car was also bought by "mummy" - but this is an aside.
So, what would you do? Its not a huge amount and in reality its small beer in comparison to the large scale frauds that go on day in and day out. But it just depresses me that someone can get away with this for so long, taking money from the government which should be used for the really needy. I mean, we pay enough in taxes and we dont need sponging gits like this bleeding the system for us all....
But, its a neighbour - and a close one at that. My life could be made VERY difficult if it ever got out any grass was me. One side of me says "shop the miserable bitch" while the other says "think of your kids".....
I am at a loss - what would you do?
That's your and my money she's nicking. 
I would be in two minds about this also.
Yes its technically "our money" that she is nicking but if she wasnt doing this where do you thinkit would go on? hospitals? schools? road repairs?
Speed cameras, useless government divisions and John Prescotts pie collection more like!
Also if you do it, be sure taht you never do anything wrong within eyeshot or earshot again coz if she finds out she will be very vindictive about it i imagine.
Good luck with your decision, i would say do it for sure but its down to your personal feelings and circumstances to decide.
Yes its technically "our money" that she is nicking but if she wasnt doing this where do you thinkit would go on? hospitals? schools? road repairs?
Speed cameras, useless government divisions and John Prescotts pie collection more like!
Also if you do it, be sure taht you never do anything wrong within eyeshot or earshot again coz if she finds out she will be very vindictive about it i imagine.
Good luck with your decision, i would say do it for sure but its down to your personal feelings and circumstances to decide.
off_again said:
I am at a loss - what would you do?
I would not grass someone up for not declaring all their earnings, IMHO anyone who is paying tax on every penny they earn is being shafted so I don't have a problem with that.
What I would grass someone up for is completely taking the pi55 by claiming all the other bits and pieces she is having from the state. There is a big difference between being a little creative and being an out and out ponse.
In short:
https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/benefitfraud/
Whatever you decide to do, the services involved are usually remarkably discrete. One of my mates shopped someone performing benefit fraud & his name wasn't even taken. As far as I know the guy got soem sort of admonishment.
If she is buying stuff on her company credit card for personal use and expensing it, a quick call to the tax man could be in order as they will nobble her for not paying benefit in kind. Probably less suspicious than DWP snooping around and could lead to whole lot getting discovered. Auditors should be picking this up if a small company, easier to slip through the net in large organisation.
Hope this scumbag gets their just desserts.
If she is buying stuff on her company credit card for personal use and expensing it, a quick call to the tax man could be in order as they will nobble her for not paying benefit in kind. Probably less suspicious than DWP snooping around and could lead to whole lot getting discovered. Auditors should be picking this up if a small company, easier to slip through the net in large organisation.
Hope this scumbag gets their just desserts.
I wonder if there isn't just a smidgin of jealousy bearing influence on your 'moral dilemna'.
This woman appears to be guilty of no more than 'creative accounting'.
How is what she's doing that much different from the creative accountancy practised by the agents of the very wealthy who use every trick in the book to minimise payments to the exchequer?.
Whilst two wrongs don't make a right, if they're honest, how many of those that are on PAYE schemes would pass on the opportunity to short change Gordon of a few bob given the opportunity?
This woman appears to be guilty of no more than 'creative accounting'.
How is what she's doing that much different from the creative accountancy practised by the agents of the very wealthy who use every trick in the book to minimise payments to the exchequer?.
Whilst two wrongs don't make a right, if they're honest, how many of those that are on PAYE schemes would pass on the opportunity to short change Gordon of a few bob given the opportunity?
Before I comment, I am not claiming even 1p from the kitty.
These people are just getting what the system allows them to. Lets face it, does Elton John bank in the UK? How about 1000001 other examples. If you're rich, you hire a bloke who helps you through the maze of paying. What's the difference between that and taking a bit, if you can walk around some of their easy rules? It's how people are getting one up on the system.
It seems we are jealous of the handouts which people of less pride than ourselves get.
I'm not crawling on my belly to those bastards. Ever.
These people are just getting what the system allows them to. Lets face it, does Elton John bank in the UK? How about 1000001 other examples. If you're rich, you hire a bloke who helps you through the maze of paying. What's the difference between that and taking a bit, if you can walk around some of their easy rules? It's how people are getting one up on the system.
It seems we are jealous of the handouts which people of less pride than ourselves get.
I'm not crawling on my belly to those bastards. Ever.
Have to admit that in my single-parent unemployment days, I was a little less than accurate in reporting any income to the relevant bodies.
Although I knew of people who fiddled big time compared to my paltry few quid a week, I said nothing. In the event, a clampdown on local 'fiddly jobs' by the DSS (well over a decade ago) netted a stack of guys who were [insert fiddly here
] when they shouldn't have been; I escaped that purge by the skin of my teeth due to having wrapped in after a car crash. I even tipped off a few people, most of whom didn't listen and were subsequently ar5e-raped by the system.
As far as this woman is concerned, I'm tempted to go with those who say she may be bullsh!tting. After all, who doesn't want everyone else to think they're doing better than they really are? I bet she has credit card bills galore but wants to make you think she's not out of pocket.
In a way, I'd rather my cash went to a chancer like that than any amount of 'asylum seekers', even if you struggle to see the difference...
Chances are she'll get roped in in the end, where our foreign brethren generally disappear/ swap ID with brother/ suddenly don't spikka da Ingrish...
>> Edited by wedg1e on Sunday 23 January 02:24
Although I knew of people who fiddled big time compared to my paltry few quid a week, I said nothing. In the event, a clampdown on local 'fiddly jobs' by the DSS (well over a decade ago) netted a stack of guys who were [insert fiddly here
] when they shouldn't have been; I escaped that purge by the skin of my teeth due to having wrapped in after a car crash. I even tipped off a few people, most of whom didn't listen and were subsequently ar5e-raped by the system. As far as this woman is concerned, I'm tempted to go with those who say she may be bullsh!tting. After all, who doesn't want everyone else to think they're doing better than they really are? I bet she has credit card bills galore but wants to make you think she's not out of pocket.
In a way, I'd rather my cash went to a chancer like that than any amount of 'asylum seekers', even if you struggle to see the difference...
Chances are she'll get roped in in the end, where our foreign brethren generally disappear/ swap ID with brother/ suddenly don't spikka da Ingrish...
>> Edited by wedg1e on Sunday 23 January 02:24
towman said:
What is the difference between what this woman is doing and a wealthy person employing a tax accountant to ensure that as little as possible is paid to the treasury?
That's tax avoidance, not evasion, and it's legal.
towman said:
Or a normal person doing a job "For cash"?
No difference...both illegal.
Having said that, my attitude to tax has changed of late, as tax has become an instrument of institutional theft.....
mybrainhurts said:
What is the difference between what this woman is doing and a wealthy person employing a tax accountant to ensure that as little as possible is paid to the treasury?
That's tax avoidance, not evasion, and it's legal.
towman said:
Or a normal person doing a job "For cash"?
No difference...both illegal.
Having said that, my attitude to tax has changed of late, as tax has become an instrument of institutional theft.....
You're not wrong. I just did a quick calculation. Based on being unable to escape Income tax, NI, pension, duty on fuel, booze, insurance and VAT on almost everything I buy, I find:-
Salary £20000pa
LESS
Tax/NI/Pension @30% of Gross £6000pa
IPT on £500 of car and home insurance £40pa
Fuel duty on £60 a month (conservative) £384pa
VAT on, say, £300 a month purchases £630pa
So my 20 grand is actually just under 13K of 'spending power'. From that comes £3K for the mortgage, from which I suppose a cut goes to the thieves - sorry, Government; hypothetically £100+ TV licence (a tax FFS).... oh yeah: £150+ Vehicle Excise Duty. Forgot that one.
No wonder people try to beat the system. You just aren't meant to do well in this sh!thole.
mybrainhurts said:
Have to wonder if she's bullshitting.
If she's really putting high, false expense claims through her company, this will be uncovered at audit, unless her auditor is a dumbo.
Its a thought that had crossed my mind also. But since the company is currently below the level for IR audit (its not that big) hardly anything would be picked up.
And since the money we are talking is actually quite small, it hardly a priority for the IR anyway. As long as everything looks OK on the cursory scan, its likely that this will continue for some time - and has already.....
sparkythecat said:
I wonder if there isn't just a smidgin of jealousy bearing influence on your 'moral dilemna'.
This woman appears to be guilty of no more than 'creative accounting'.
How is what she's doing that much different from the creative accountancy practised by the agents of the very wealthy who use every trick in the book to minimise payments to the exchequer?.
Whilst two wrongs don't make a right, if they're honest, how many of those that are on PAYE schemes would pass on the opportunity to short change Gordon of a few bob given the opportunity?
I agree that this could be seen as simple "creative accounting", but there is certainly no jealousy here. Its the brazen attitude of it all. It seems quite natural for her to think its fair to do what she is doing - almost as if its acceptible.
Its fair to try and manipulate the rules. It would be daft to try and fight against them, so work with the system to get what you can - thats fine. But the danger is that a small scale now (and get away with it) could be quite significant later. Its the old situation of being in the right place at the right time.
love machine said:
If you're rich, you hire a bloke who helps you through the maze of paying. What's the difference between that and taking a bit, if you can walk around some of their easy rules? It's how people are getting one up on the system.
It seems we are jealous of the handouts which people of less pride than ourselves get.
I agree its a close call. The difference here is that she is falsely reporting her earnings (earning significantly more than the limits for tax credit) as a director and as the person responsible for payroll. She is then using her company credit card to make personal purchases and making fraudulent expense claims to top-up her monthly income. From the reported figures she then claims tax credits and hence pays less tax.
This is funamentally different to that of someone who tries to work around the system. This is blatant fabrication of the facts knowing that its wrong.....
As I mentioned above - no jealousy here.
So how do you know all this, eh? She told you?
So if the Revenue come knocking who do you think she's going to blame? Random chance - or someone she told - and she will think back - and she will know it was you.
Is it worth it?
Probably not. The whole shebang probably adds up to a few K of tax a year. Its not going to make the slightest difference to anyone other than to assuage some noble sense of outrage you might have. And is it worth the trouble?
By the way - I can think of no good reason why she'd have told you any of this...
So if the Revenue come knocking who do you think she's going to blame? Random chance - or someone she told - and she will think back - and she will know it was you.
Is it worth it?
Probably not. The whole shebang probably adds up to a few K of tax a year. Its not going to make the slightest difference to anyone other than to assuage some noble sense of outrage you might have. And is it worth the trouble?
By the way - I can think of no good reason why she'd have told you any of this...
There seems to be alot of comments that the auditors should be detecting the fraud.
The audit threshold is now 5.6M Turnover- and I doubt that this company is that large.
She may well be having her accounts prepared for her-but that is a different matter entirely and the accountant is not expressing an opinion on those financial statements.
On a positive note accountants are now required to report any suspected tax evasion to NCIS-so for all you know they have already done so. As part of this process they cannot tell the client about this-because that would be tipping off, so for a while at least your neighbour will be blissfully unaware.
For all you business owners out there-be carefull what you tell your accountant
The audit threshold is now 5.6M Turnover- and I doubt that this company is that large.
She may well be having her accounts prepared for her-but that is a different matter entirely and the accountant is not expressing an opinion on those financial statements.
On a positive note accountants are now required to report any suspected tax evasion to NCIS-so for all you know they have already done so. As part of this process they cannot tell the client about this-because that would be tipping off, so for a while at least your neighbour will be blissfully unaware.
For all you business owners out there-be carefull what you tell your accountant
A number of inaccuracies need correcting here:
small companies (turnovers under £5.6 million, less than 250 employees)do not have to be audited as defined under the Companies Acts. Most small companies avail of this exemption and therefore they do not have formal "audits" and by definition, do not have formal "auditors".
there is no requirement from the Inland Revenue for companies to be audited. It is a Companies Act requirement for large comapnies as defined above.
it is a criminal offence to defraud the Inland Revenue - whether through underdeclaration of personal income, incorrect claiming of benefits or tax credits, overstatement of expenses in the company etc etc.
if she is drawing more money from the company for her personal use and is not declaring it as personal income for Income Tax and NI purposes AND is claimimng that these "expenses" are legitimate business costs, she is committing at least two criminal frauds.
she may not have a formal auditor checking her accounts but she probably has an accountant preparing the company accounts to ensure they comply with the Companies Acts statutory formats. If she does have an accountant, under the Proceeds of Crime Act he is under a legal obligation to report her frauds (or even his suspicion that she might be prerpetrating a fraud) to the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS). If he does not do this, HE in turn will be committing a criminal offence. Finally, if he does report her and tells her that he has done so, he will also have committed the futher criminal offence of "tipping off".
The Inland Reveneue may not conduct "audits" as such but, if they are suspicious about figures shown in accounts, they will launch an "enquiry".
So, she is "cruising for a bruising" because I would suggest she has contravened the following areas:
underdeclaration of company profits
underdeclaration of personal income from company
failure to disclose overdrawn personal loan accounts with the company
failure to comply with PAYE and National Insurance regulations
incorrect and fraudulent claiming of benefits and tax credits
and from what you say, I wouldn't be surprised if other areas such as VAT are also being manipulated in her favour.
All we need is for her accountant or the Inland Revenue/Customs and Excise to do their jobs properly.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 23 January 10:11
small companies (turnovers under £5.6 million, less than 250 employees)do not have to be audited as defined under the Companies Acts. Most small companies avail of this exemption and therefore they do not have formal "audits" and by definition, do not have formal "auditors".
there is no requirement from the Inland Revenue for companies to be audited. It is a Companies Act requirement for large comapnies as defined above.
it is a criminal offence to defraud the Inland Revenue - whether through underdeclaration of personal income, incorrect claiming of benefits or tax credits, overstatement of expenses in the company etc etc.
if she is drawing more money from the company for her personal use and is not declaring it as personal income for Income Tax and NI purposes AND is claimimng that these "expenses" are legitimate business costs, she is committing at least two criminal frauds.
she may not have a formal auditor checking her accounts but she probably has an accountant preparing the company accounts to ensure they comply with the Companies Acts statutory formats. If she does have an accountant, under the Proceeds of Crime Act he is under a legal obligation to report her frauds (or even his suspicion that she might be prerpetrating a fraud) to the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS). If he does not do this, HE in turn will be committing a criminal offence. Finally, if he does report her and tells her that he has done so, he will also have committed the futher criminal offence of "tipping off".
The Inland Reveneue may not conduct "audits" as such but, if they are suspicious about figures shown in accounts, they will launch an "enquiry".
So, she is "cruising for a bruising" because I would suggest she has contravened the following areas:
underdeclaration of company profits
underdeclaration of personal income from company
failure to disclose overdrawn personal loan accounts with the company
failure to comply with PAYE and National Insurance regulations
incorrect and fraudulent claiming of benefits and tax credits
and from what you say, I wouldn't be surprised if other areas such as VAT are also being manipulated in her favour.
All we need is for her accountant or the Inland Revenue/Customs and Excise to do their jobs properly.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 23 January 10:11
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