At last, common sense from the French...
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4248845.stm
I was always worried about France's committment to long term economic suicide but this type of turnabout is an encouraging sign that even amidst the heartlands of presumed 'European Centralisers,' the threats to all of our future prosperities appear to be finding acknowledgement.
On newsnight this week, a bloke who ran a modest manufacturing concern reckoned the restrictions of the current working week regime added 11% to his labour bill.
The fact that France can act in the face of such blatently unsustainable economic practice, reassures me that the opportunities for reassessing greater activity within the EC for collective future gain, may be on the agenda.
It's a balancing act, between quality of life and standard of living, of course but I always felt the socialist forces in France represented the greatest ideological barrier to an effective, united, EC rebuttal of Chinese might over the coming years.
A polite round of applause, methinnks.
I was always worried about France's committment to long term economic suicide but this type of turnabout is an encouraging sign that even amidst the heartlands of presumed 'European Centralisers,' the threats to all of our future prosperities appear to be finding acknowledgement.
On newsnight this week, a bloke who ran a modest manufacturing concern reckoned the restrictions of the current working week regime added 11% to his labour bill.
The fact that France can act in the face of such blatently unsustainable economic practice, reassures me that the opportunities for reassessing greater activity within the EC for collective future gain, may be on the agenda.
It's a balancing act, between quality of life and standard of living, of course but I always felt the socialist forces in France represented the greatest ideological barrier to an effective, united, EC rebuttal of Chinese might over the coming years.
A polite round of applause, methinnks.
derestrictor said:
I always felt the socialist forces in France represented the greatest ideological barrier to an effective, united, EC rebuttal of Chinese might over the coming years.
The greatest barrier is that it was a crap idea in the first place, was a crap idea before the French started changing thier working patterns and is now still a crap idea!
While I think this is the only good law that was voted in the last decade, "socialism" does remain a good thing. No need to turn it into something inherently bad when you have no idea what it is, just like some retarded americans who are anti communists just for the sake of it. Also do certainly not mix up Blairist socialism with continental Europe socialism.
PS : this law will have to be considered good or bad depending on the effect it has on unemployment levels. If it does not reduce unemployment, I will consider it bad.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 12th February 11:23
PS : this law will have to be considered good or bad depending on the effect it has on unemployment levels. If it does not reduce unemployment, I will consider it bad.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 12th February 11:23
But if every company has the same regulations to work to then shorter working weeks are a good idea. In england people are expected to work overtime with no extra pay... and it spoils peoples' enjoyment of life.
I actually have no sort of minimum hours (PhD student) but I still tend to work 10 or 11 hours a day for some reason... I'm just enthusiastic.
I actually have no sort of minimum hours (PhD student) but I still tend to work 10 or 11 hours a day for some reason... I'm just enthusiastic.
D_Mike said:
But if every company has the same regulations to work to then shorter working weeks are a good idea. In england people are expected to work overtime with no extra pay... and it spoils peoples' enjoyment of life.
I actually have no sort of minimum hours (PhD student) but I still tend to work 10 or 11 hours a day for some reason... I'm just enthusiastic.
In principle, yes but unfortunately customers' expectations in every sector, nationally and internationally, aren't too concerned with your or my quality of life.
This fundamental ignorance by the social engineers is what the french seem to be waking up to.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 40 hour working week but I can see what's coming from the east.
That, and the basic gist of capitalism is, if you DON'T want to work more than 35 or 40 hours a week, then get a job that doesn't require you to. However, often times if you want to make more money, you have to (gasp!) work harder for it. Which sometimes means longers hours.
Now, let's say you are a small business owner. You put in your hours at your own shop...then do the books, the payroll, etc. You are putting in way more than 35 hours. But you can't get ahead, because your employees can only work 35 hours. So you have to hire more employees to cover demand, or scale back your business. Either way, despite your hard work, you are held back by the system.
Socialism isn't about advancing everyone to be equal. It's about holding the lead of the pack back to be equal with the folks in the back. That's why it hasn't fared too well.
Either your skilled people (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc) get fed up with it, or they skirt it and the system becomes corrupted. It's just not a system that is compatable with human nature.
>> Edited by madmike on Saturday 12th February 16:36
Now, let's say you are a small business owner. You put in your hours at your own shop...then do the books, the payroll, etc. You are putting in way more than 35 hours. But you can't get ahead, because your employees can only work 35 hours. So you have to hire more employees to cover demand, or scale back your business. Either way, despite your hard work, you are held back by the system.
Socialism isn't about advancing everyone to be equal. It's about holding the lead of the pack back to be equal with the folks in the back. That's why it hasn't fared too well.
Either your skilled people (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc) get fed up with it, or they skirt it and the system becomes corrupted. It's just not a system that is compatable with human nature.
>> Edited by madmike on Saturday 12th February 16:36
madmike said:
That, and the basic gist of capitalism is, if you DON'T want to work more than 35 or 40 hours a week, then get a job that doesn't require you to. However, often times if you want to make more money, you have to (gasp!) work harder for it. Which sometimes means longers hours.
Now, let's say you are a small business owner. You put in your hours at your own shop...then do the books, the payroll, etc. You are putting in way more than 35 hours. But you can't get ahead, because your employees can only work 35 hours. So you have to hire more employees to cover demand, or scale back your business. Either way, despite your hard work, you are held back by the system.
Socialism isn't about advancing everyone to be equal. It's about holding the lead of the pack back to be equal with the folks in the back. That's why it hasn't fared too well.
Either your skilled people (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc) get fed up with it, or they skirt it and the system becomes corrupted. It's just not a system that is compatable with human nature.
>> Edited by madmike on Saturday 12th February 16:36
The 35-hour workweek isn't a limit - you can get people to work more than 35 hours per week under that limit. They just have to be paid time-and-a-half for any hours over that.
Such guidelines are supposed to prevent abuse of a salary system - if a manager/lawyer/engineer will be paid the same whether he works 40 hours or 70, guess what his boss will demand of him?
As for cheap Chinese competition, all we have to do if we don't want to worry about it is to impose minimum quality standards for imported goods equivalent to our engineering standards here. The "made-in-china" label means that the product is junk over 90% of the time. Consumers are realizing that Chinese goods are false bargains; but they now have no choice as that's all that's available in many cases. I'd speculate that people would be willing to pay a 30% premium on tools and electronics if it had a made-in-the-US label - I'd do it every time as I've never had anything last that was made there. 5 cents per hour doesn't get you much...
Besides, the human-rights issues there are staggering. In addition to the lack of personal freedoms, employers have explicit approval from the government to pay workers less than what they can live on, in order to bind them to the company. If we can afford to spend $300B in two years blowing up some tincan dictator, we can afford to lose the estimated $100B worth of economic activity we'd lose by stopping all trade with mainland China.
This brings me to Taiwan. For fifty years, they've been independent of China; for more than twenty, they've been capitalist and democratic. Workers are allowed to organize, and employers cannot retaliate with force or mass layoffs. The quality of life has improved massively there in recent years. What's our stance on this shining example of the benefits of freedom? A "One-China" policy and a refusal of diplomatic recognition!
chaparral said:
The 35-hour workweek isn't a limit -
its much much worse than people think.
some friends own a gardening business in france and they are shutting up shop because of these new laws. (if they havent already)
you are no longer allowed to employ staff on a temporary basis, and the minimum hours you have to pay them is 35 hours per week - whether or not they actually work for 35 hours.
its more or less put an end to any form of part time work.
many businesses will not take on extra staff in france bwecause its a nightmare to get rid of them if they become surplus.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
of course, and of that I'm well aware.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree with all you say - and before I go any further want to point out I think I do more than is expected of me anyway... monday 9 - 7, tuesday 8:30 - 7, wednesday 9 - 7, thursday 8 - 6 (left early to go to pub to celebrate my group getting a lot more money) friday 9 to 9.
so thats... 52.5 hours... which to be honest i'm happy to do.
But I don't think that shorter working weeks are stupid or unachievable. Scandinavian countries are generally pretty economically successful and have a much, much better work/life balance than we do here.
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