How many niches? A niche or several too far?
Discussion
In the latest Autocar, I'm left more confused than normal.
The cover proclaims the latest 414 bhp RS4.
Once inside, you hear that the new 'Lexus Supra' is aiming to compete head-on with the 911 Turbo in the US.
Bugatti seem to be on the cusp of arriving, finally with their Beckhamtacular Veyron which if you're at all interested, seems to be launching to 60 mph in about 2.8 seconds.
AMG will be providing Lucinda with a 6.3 litred ML55 with "a Porsche Cayenne Turbo beating 500 bhp."
Maserati feels compelled to launch a 5.7 litre V12 for it's Quattroporte (a car that's just flying out of the showrooms, I'm sure) whilst the crowning turd in the water closet has once again no option but to land resplendantly in the laps of the Blingmeisters from Brabus with their £430k, 640 bhp Maybach.
Lest we forget, there are vast swathes of hugely capable, uber powerful alternatives from traditional players at Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, not to mention our home grown heroes at TVR and Noble and to a lesser extent, the latest in a line of now trad uberviggen Ms at BMW.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of spectacular performance but there's something oversaturating about all this ubiquitous foraying into the traditional supercar playgrounds by every man and his dog.
Like cheap foreign holidays and the right for all and sundry to vote, an example of entities not knowing their place...and making the world a drearier place to boot.
Anyway, how many takers for ALL these mega speed variants physically exist?
The cover proclaims the latest 414 bhp RS4.
Once inside, you hear that the new 'Lexus Supra' is aiming to compete head-on with the 911 Turbo in the US.
Bugatti seem to be on the cusp of arriving, finally with their Beckhamtacular Veyron which if you're at all interested, seems to be launching to 60 mph in about 2.8 seconds.
AMG will be providing Lucinda with a 6.3 litred ML55 with "a Porsche Cayenne Turbo beating 500 bhp."
Maserati feels compelled to launch a 5.7 litre V12 for it's Quattroporte (a car that's just flying out of the showrooms, I'm sure) whilst the crowning turd in the water closet has once again no option but to land resplendantly in the laps of the Blingmeisters from Brabus with their £430k, 640 bhp Maybach.
Lest we forget, there are vast swathes of hugely capable, uber powerful alternatives from traditional players at Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, not to mention our home grown heroes at TVR and Noble and to a lesser extent, the latest in a line of now trad uberviggen Ms at BMW.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of spectacular performance but there's something oversaturating about all this ubiquitous foraying into the traditional supercar playgrounds by every man and his dog.
Like cheap foreign holidays and the right for all and sundry to vote, an example of entities not knowing their place...and making the world a drearier place to boot.
Anyway, how many takers for ALL these mega speed variants physically exist?
Perhaps it's just a quiestion of 'levels'.
Supercars are still supercars by their very nature, and fast estates are still fast mountain-bike-carrying-volvos (et al).
However, 20...30 years ago the supercars had 300-350bhp and were a pig to drive, though they were incredibly powerful compared with other modern (read: contemporary) machinery.
Now, supercars have 500-600 (and then the Veyron) bhp, are easier to drive, and are very powerful compared with other modern machinery.
The point I'm badly making is that it's all about where you set the bar, I think. The only problem is that the bars are getting closer together, and the engineering capabilities of 'average' cars getting ever closer to 'super'cars.
A question: If there are many many many niches, do all those niches then not become niches?
Supercars are still supercars by their very nature, and fast estates are still fast mountain-bike-carrying-volvos (et al).
However, 20...30 years ago the supercars had 300-350bhp and were a pig to drive, though they were incredibly powerful compared with other modern (read: contemporary) machinery.
Now, supercars have 500-600 (and then the Veyron) bhp, are easier to drive, and are very powerful compared with other modern machinery.
The point I'm badly making is that it's all about where you set the bar, I think. The only problem is that the bars are getting closer together, and the engineering capabilities of 'average' cars getting ever closer to 'super'cars.
A question: If there are many many many niches, do all those niches then not become niches?
I have the feeling that this is a big bubble just about to burst. Bling culture is losing its attraction to the masses and the realities of savage depreciation and the poxy modern road system will kick-in.
Still, should be good for the pukka enthusiasts in search of a bargain over the next few years...
Still, should be good for the pukka enthusiasts in search of a bargain over the next few years...
DeR - I think your recent experience in a C5 must have addled your automotive senses: surely you of all people are in the "you can never have too much power" camp?
I'm willing to bet you would be the first to enjoy dragging your Caterham/dogs/family/wardrobes around with 414bhp under your right foot, or to experience the gentle massaging of your kidneys as your butler drives you to the corner shop in an AMG Maybach. The bottom line is that these are all super powerful cars, each having a different purpose.
And as for the "wrong" manufacturers producing powerful cars - all those that you mention come from firms with a strong motorsport involvement, so why shouldn't they reflect that in their aspirational models?
Anyway, it seems it might be time for you to chop the fleet in for a C5, a pair of slippers and a matching tartan rug.
I'm willing to bet you would be the first to enjoy dragging your Caterham/dogs/family/wardrobes around with 414bhp under your right foot, or to experience the gentle massaging of your kidneys as your butler drives you to the corner shop in an AMG Maybach. The bottom line is that these are all super powerful cars, each having a different purpose.
And as for the "wrong" manufacturers producing powerful cars - all those that you mention come from firms with a strong motorsport involvement, so why shouldn't they reflect that in their aspirational models?
Anyway, it seems it might be time for you to chop the fleet in for a C5, a pair of slippers and a matching tartan rug.
A lot of these "supercars"(?) are not as they seem,, with the advances in ESP,PSM,....etc....a lot of these cars have a fairly narrow appeal once you have gone beyond the one upmanship of having the largest numbers on your badge than anyone else you are likely to come across with the same model..
I feel a lot of it is down to marketing for the whole range rather than meeting the demands of the enthusiast.
I feel a lot of it is down to marketing for the whole range rather than meeting the demands of the enthusiast.
I think we have too many supercars, or cars with near- supercar performance, chasing too few buyers already, and we are due for a bit of a cull. Add the fact that crude futures are stuck higher than current petrol prices allow for, and a bit of a credit squeeze, and it could even be a 1970s style rout, IMHO.
I think supercars are perhaps pushing themselves beyond the field of driver enjoyment into the realm of purely academic figures which, when all is said and done, simply become bragging rights.
The 'old' 350 bhp supercars weren't necessarily a 'pig to drive', they were engaging to drive and meant that every sortie became some kind of challenge. It also reinforced the fact that these cars were for drivers rather than merely rich people - a lot of people could afford a Countach, for sure, but the fact that only 800 were made in almost 20 years means that their appeal was limited to those who could 'put up with' driving them.
Every time I see another ballistic German saloon, I switch off, as it means only a few things in real life common to all German saloons - silver-grey paint, dull black leather, tyre roar, automatic transmission, electrically assisted everything a silent engine and a 155 mph limiter. Boring.
Supercars are becoming dull. I'd rather have a £25k Boxster over a £100k+ RUF 911 turbo any day, simply because in 'real' driving terms, the fun will be the same.
The 'old' 350 bhp supercars weren't necessarily a 'pig to drive', they were engaging to drive and meant that every sortie became some kind of challenge. It also reinforced the fact that these cars were for drivers rather than merely rich people - a lot of people could afford a Countach, for sure, but the fact that only 800 were made in almost 20 years means that their appeal was limited to those who could 'put up with' driving them.
Every time I see another ballistic German saloon, I switch off, as it means only a few things in real life common to all German saloons - silver-grey paint, dull black leather, tyre roar, automatic transmission, electrically assisted everything a silent engine and a 155 mph limiter. Boring.
Supercars are becoming dull. I'd rather have a £25k Boxster over a £100k+ RUF 911 turbo any day, simply because in 'real' driving terms, the fun will be the same.
dick dastardly said:
Anyway, how many takers for ALL these mega speed variants physically exist?
I often wonder that. These days it seems like every other car is either an X5, Range Rover or Cayenne. I can't believe that there are so many people with £50K+ to spend on a car.
I suspect it's rather more the case that folk have easy access to credit. It would be interesting to see, in the event of massive interest rate hikes/ house price crash etc. just how many people can truly 'afford' their cars...
I think theres far to many £100k+ cars on the market, surely there cant be people to buy them all? I know a lot of the ultra exotics (zondas, enzo's etc) have very limited supply but theres stacks of others around.
BentlyGT
All ferrari's range
Lambo
PorscheGT
RR
Aston DB9/vanquish
Maybach
Buggati
koneigsig(sp)
Askari
Masser
Bristol
Thats just of the top of my head in a few seconds...I've probably missed more than I got.
BentlyGT
All ferrari's range
Lambo
PorscheGT
RR
Aston DB9/vanquish
Maybach
Buggati
koneigsig(sp)
Askari
Masser
Bristol
Thats just of the top of my head in a few seconds...I've probably missed more than I got.
Gazboy said:
I think theres far to many £100k+ cars on the market, surely there cant be people to buy them all?
How many teams in the premiership? How many per squad, inc managers, directors and hangers on? That's a lot of people with a lot of money doing not a lot.
That accounts for the bently and 360 sales then, what about the rest?
Gazboy said:
v8thunder said:
Supercars are becoming dull. I'd rather have a £25k Boxster over a £100k+ RUF 911 turbo any day, simply because in 'real' driving terms, the fun will be the same.
My God you are talking out of your arse now! No offense (to you or Boxter owners)
In what way? Seriously, when are you going to exploit the capabilities of your 200mph supercar? Most of them are too large to be thrashed round your local lanes and during ordinary, motorway/speed limit driving supercars are like any other inert box, only you're using more fuel standing still.
What needs to happen is for supercars to be made more enjoyable and usable at every speed. When one gets tested by a magazine you always hear the journo saying that you have to take it beyond 100 to enjoy it and beyond 150 to allow it to realy come into its own. Even with sensible speed limits, you're never going to see that kind of speed, and only on a track, where your car will almost be too expensive to use and, once you've grown tired of being overtaken by Exiges, you'd begin to doubt the point surely?
IMO the last great supercar was the Bugatti EB110, because they made sure it was usable during normal sporting driving, setting up the four turbos so the first one boosted like a hot hatches and was enjoyable and chuckable (compact, 4WD), yet you could go on to 212 mph if you wanted.
Since the McLaren F1, everyone's seen speed and power as the target, not usability.
Perhaps the buying mentality is different when you're buying cars with six-figure price tags, but surely it's the driving experience that counts above all.
Put it this way, there's a reason why the most commonly-owned car among F1 drivers is the Fiat 500 Abarth.
Gazboy said:
v8thunder said:
Supercars are becoming dull. I'd rather have a £25k Boxster over a £100k+ RUF 911 turbo any day, simply because in 'real' driving terms, the fun will be the same.
My God you are talking out of your arse now! No offense (to you or Boxter owners)
Gazboy, Surely you are a being a little harsh here, V8T has no doubt spent a considerable ammount of time behind the wheel of these cars to enable to him to formulate such a bizarre opinion
It's easier to boast about BHP then it is weight savings etc. Just face it guys we occupy a small segment of the market. Most people don't care about the technology that goes into their cars just that it has more power than the Jones' next door.
Caterhams are the way forward. But then I'm biased aren't I?
Caterhams are the way forward. But then I'm biased aren't I?
Tracks are a pretty cumby way of achieveing decent speeds.
Having said that, it does help if you can stay on the f@ckers!
The fabulous thing with RUF-spec kit for UK use resides not so much, admittedly, in any form of stratospheric speed maintenance (although it is ridiculously easy to visit Planet 12 Points), rather, by dipping into the almost embarrassing surfeit of acceleration that redefines the term 'jet.'
It is my intention within the next 2 months to speak to my lord, The Duke of Norfolk and finally nail the double ton.
Why, I hear the vegans bleat?
Why? Because it is there.
Having said that, it does help if you can stay on the f@ckers!
The fabulous thing with RUF-spec kit for UK use resides not so much, admittedly, in any form of stratospheric speed maintenance (although it is ridiculously easy to visit Planet 12 Points), rather, by dipping into the almost embarrassing surfeit of acceleration that redefines the term 'jet.'
It is my intention within the next 2 months to speak to my lord, The Duke of Norfolk and finally nail the double ton.
Why, I hear the vegans bleat?
Why? Because it is there.
The gap is much smaller now.
Maybe it's just because I read Evo alot, but there does seem to be a new "supercar" - or at least a vehicle offering "supercar performance" - born every minute. It is getting a little bit boring.
Of course, driving them is undoubtedly a completely different matter. Although I would imagine it could be frustrating at times - Even my humble MR2 is sometimes too powerful to be fully exploited during day-to-day driving. Having all the power in the world is great, but only when you get a chance to wring it all out.
Therein lies the issue, I suppose.
>> Edited by DanBoy on Tuesday 22 February 16:38
Maybe it's just because I read Evo alot, but there does seem to be a new "supercar" - or at least a vehicle offering "supercar performance" - born every minute. It is getting a little bit boring.
Of course, driving them is undoubtedly a completely different matter. Although I would imagine it could be frustrating at times - Even my humble MR2 is sometimes too powerful to be fully exploited during day-to-day driving. Having all the power in the world is great, but only when you get a chance to wring it all out.
Therein lies the issue, I suppose.
>> Edited by DanBoy on Tuesday 22 February 16:38
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