House buying - structural problems
Discussion
Chaps,
Yup, yet again something has happened to fracture the peaceful existance of Mrs zcacogp and my not-so-good self, and, as usual, I turn to PH for advice, assistance and an absorbant shoulder to cry on. Actually, I'll settle for just the advice.
We are trying to buy a house. We have found a house we like, and have made an offer, it has been accepted, and the purchasing wheels are turning busily. We have not yet exchanged contracts.
We need a mortgage to buy. Our mortgage company has done a brief survey of the house, to find out whether it is worth lending money on, and the survey results have said that the roof is sagging, and it will need repair. How much repair is not yet known - they need a full structural engineers report. Only when they have this report will they value the house. The simplest possible outcome is a strengthening of the roof, costing around £3000 (+VAT). Most expensive will be a whole new roof, plus replacement of lintels (Approx £12,000 +VAT + lots of hassle.)
The price we agreed is pretty much market price, and we obviously aren't going to pay market price if it also needs money spent on it.
Any further progress is going to cost us money. We would need to pay for the full structural survey, as well as paying more solicitors fees. Therefore, what we would like to do is for the vendor to agree that he will pay, in full, for any repairs necessary to the house, plus some payment for hassle, or to knock this cost off the price of the house. We would make it clear that if he is not willing to give us this garuntee, we will not proceed with the sale. (We don't want to throw good money after bad - thus far the process hasn't cost us much.)
My question simply is, is this possible, and is this legal? Is it a standard thing that people do when buying a house? Yes, I need to put these questions to my solicitor, he is busy until this afternoon and I will speak to him then. But is there anything I should know about the process before talking to him?
Should we attempt such an agreement, I would want it to be completely binding - the vendor is a property solicitor, and will know every trick in the book to wriggle out of his responsibilities (and is a slightly tricksy character to boot.)
Any advice would be more than welcome. Thanks for reading.
Oli.
Yup, yet again something has happened to fracture the peaceful existance of Mrs zcacogp and my not-so-good self, and, as usual, I turn to PH for advice, assistance and an absorbant shoulder to cry on. Actually, I'll settle for just the advice.
We are trying to buy a house. We have found a house we like, and have made an offer, it has been accepted, and the purchasing wheels are turning busily. We have not yet exchanged contracts.
We need a mortgage to buy. Our mortgage company has done a brief survey of the house, to find out whether it is worth lending money on, and the survey results have said that the roof is sagging, and it will need repair. How much repair is not yet known - they need a full structural engineers report. Only when they have this report will they value the house. The simplest possible outcome is a strengthening of the roof, costing around £3000 (+VAT). Most expensive will be a whole new roof, plus replacement of lintels (Approx £12,000 +VAT + lots of hassle.)
The price we agreed is pretty much market price, and we obviously aren't going to pay market price if it also needs money spent on it.
Any further progress is going to cost us money. We would need to pay for the full structural survey, as well as paying more solicitors fees. Therefore, what we would like to do is for the vendor to agree that he will pay, in full, for any repairs necessary to the house, plus some payment for hassle, or to knock this cost off the price of the house. We would make it clear that if he is not willing to give us this garuntee, we will not proceed with the sale. (We don't want to throw good money after bad - thus far the process hasn't cost us much.)
My question simply is, is this possible, and is this legal? Is it a standard thing that people do when buying a house? Yes, I need to put these questions to my solicitor, he is busy until this afternoon and I will speak to him then. But is there anything I should know about the process before talking to him?
Should we attempt such an agreement, I would want it to be completely binding - the vendor is a property solicitor, and will know every trick in the book to wriggle out of his responsibilities (and is a slightly tricksy character to boot.)
Any advice would be more than welcome. Thanks for reading.
Oli.
A very timely posting. Only last week a friend had a survey on a house which highlighted the roof was at the end of its useful life.
She merely went back to the vendor and reduced her offer by the cost of the likely repairs.
Worth a go. Your vendor is probably savvy enough to know that buyers are becoming thinner on the ground.
The worst that could happen is that somebody else agrees to buy the house, despite the problems.
She merely went back to the vendor and reduced her offer by the cost of the likely repairs.
Worth a go. Your vendor is probably savvy enough to know that buyers are becoming thinner on the ground.
The worst that could happen is that somebody else agrees to buy the house, despite the problems.
Same happened to my sister-in-law.
Roof knackered needed rewiring went back to vemdors with a reduced offer reflecting the work needed.
AFAIK this is fairly standard practice. As long as the surveyor's report is reasonable, remember they have to cover themselves and may suggest the BEST fix rather than an adequate fix.
But by all means go back with a reduced offer.
Roof knackered needed rewiring went back to vemdors with a reduced offer reflecting the work needed.
AFAIK this is fairly standard practice. As long as the surveyor's report is reasonable, remember they have to cover themselves and may suggest the BEST fix rather than an adequate fix.
But by all means go back with a reduced offer.
To reitirate, withdraw your current offer and place a new one on the basis of the work required, unfortunatley this will require a full survey to back up your argument and so you know where you stand regarding future expense. Do you like the house enough to do that or would you rather walk away from the hassle?
One solution would be for him to carry out the repairs but that leaves him open to the risk that you could walk away from the deal after him having spent a considerable sum on a house he's looking to get rid of. It also asks the question if he does agree to carry out the works will he try and economise in any areas?
Alternatively have your own sturctural survey carried out and get it priced to ascertain the full extent of the work (I'd recommend at least a couple of quotes plus assuming around 10-15% contingency on top of the quotes). You can then attempt to negotiate this cost from the purchase price and carry the work out yourself.
As mentioned above buyers are thin on the ground at the moment and having personally agreed a price on a property this week with my first offer being accepted almost immediately, it just goes to show vendors are desperate to deal.
Alternatively have your own sturctural survey carried out and get it priced to ascertain the full extent of the work (I'd recommend at least a couple of quotes plus assuming around 10-15% contingency on top of the quotes). You can then attempt to negotiate this cost from the purchase price and carry the work out yourself.
As mentioned above buyers are thin on the ground at the moment and having personally agreed a price on a property this week with my first offer being accepted almost immediately, it just goes to show vendors are desperate to deal.
I have recently done the same. Agreed a price on a property subject to survey, survey confirmed my suspicions that the roof was at the end of its life so reduced offer price accordingly. I personally would not get involved in a deal where you pay the original price, with a guarantee that the vendor pays for the re-roofing. He is hardly going to be be in a hurry to have the work done - the roofer would be working for the vendor, not you.
However, the complication in your case is the mortgage company's reluctance to lend. I was putting down more than 50% of the purchase price so the mortgage company were not concerned about the state of the property. Even if you agree with the vendor to reduce the purchase price by the worst case price of £12k, the mortgage company will probably still insist on a structural survey (presumably at your expense).
How about getting a roofer in first to quote you for whatever needs doing? Have a look on www.nfrc.co.uk/ to find a reputable contractor in your area. The quote will be free, and even though the roofer will probably not be a structural engineer, you could use his quote to renegotiate the price. If the new offer is acceptable then you will know that you are not wasting your money by paying for the mortgage co's structural survey.
Steve
However, the complication in your case is the mortgage company's reluctance to lend. I was putting down more than 50% of the purchase price so the mortgage company were not concerned about the state of the property. Even if you agree with the vendor to reduce the purchase price by the worst case price of £12k, the mortgage company will probably still insist on a structural survey (presumably at your expense).
How about getting a roofer in first to quote you for whatever needs doing? Have a look on www.nfrc.co.uk/ to find a reputable contractor in your area. The quote will be free, and even though the roofer will probably not be a structural engineer, you could use his quote to renegotiate the price. If the new offer is acceptable then you will know that you are not wasting your money by paying for the mortgage co's structural survey.
Steve
Crumbs! Lots of very helpful posts - really, PH comes up trumps once again. Thank you very much to everyone who has posted.
The trouble is that we don't yet know how much it will cost to fix. We know that there are problems, but don't know the extent of them. To find out the extent, we will need the full structural survey, but this costs money. We don't want to cough up for this survey if the vendor is not going to play ball with paying for the repairs. Therefore, we would like him to agree to pay for the repairs before we know how much they will be ... and when it is put like this, it sounds most unappealing from the vendors point of view.
We know that it had roof problems - he tried to sell last summer, but the roof started leaking, probably on account of it sagging (the slates were replaced with tiles about 5 years ago, which are heavier and the roof can't take the weight.) He didn't manage to sell, but had the leak fixed and let the house instead. The mortgage surveyor is strongly of the opinion that it wasn't fixed, instead it was botched, and this needs removing, the roof at least strengthening, and then properly sealed. (The vendor had it done with heavy felt, apparently it should have been done with lead.) However, it may be too far gone, which means a whole new roof ... and the sagging roof has caused the back wall to move a little, leading to cracked lintels.
rsvmilly - yes, a lower offer is definately the way to go, but we don't know how much lower to offer. We will only know when we have paid for the survey, and if the vendor refuses to budge, the money on the survey will have been wasted. (How much are structural surveys anyway? Anyone any idea?) If the Halifax refused to offer a mortgage until more is known, then I am guessing that no-one else will get a mortgage on it either for the same reason. So, he should realise that this is a problem that will not disappear overnight.
Mrmaggit - yes, vendor is a property solicitor, and a slightly difficult guy to deal with. Any negotiations will be via our solicitors. The vendor apparently lost his temper with the mortgage surveyor when the survey was done, because the surveyor asked the vendor to move the hoover to allow him access to the basement ...
Fluffy - Thanks. Good point about the suveyor recommending the most comprehensive fix out there. But this is the only one we would accept, and the vendor will be paying for it if we buy the house.
Stedale - How much do we like the house? Well, it's a nice house. And we like it. But if it is going to be very absorbant of cash, then our heads must rule our hearts. (Typically, I am less attached than Mrs zcacogp!) Walking away is one very serious option at the moment. The offer we made is pretty much the market value, and we are not going to be footing big extra bills on top of this.
Having said all this, I rather suspect that the vendor will refuse to reduce the price come what may. In which case, getting out now is the best option.
Heigh ho. Thanks again to everyone for the comments. We'll see where we go from here. Speaking with the solicitor this afternoon, and I'll see what he says.
Oli.
The trouble is that we don't yet know how much it will cost to fix. We know that there are problems, but don't know the extent of them. To find out the extent, we will need the full structural survey, but this costs money. We don't want to cough up for this survey if the vendor is not going to play ball with paying for the repairs. Therefore, we would like him to agree to pay for the repairs before we know how much they will be ... and when it is put like this, it sounds most unappealing from the vendors point of view.
We know that it had roof problems - he tried to sell last summer, but the roof started leaking, probably on account of it sagging (the slates were replaced with tiles about 5 years ago, which are heavier and the roof can't take the weight.) He didn't manage to sell, but had the leak fixed and let the house instead. The mortgage surveyor is strongly of the opinion that it wasn't fixed, instead it was botched, and this needs removing, the roof at least strengthening, and then properly sealed. (The vendor had it done with heavy felt, apparently it should have been done with lead.) However, it may be too far gone, which means a whole new roof ... and the sagging roof has caused the back wall to move a little, leading to cracked lintels.
rsvmilly - yes, a lower offer is definately the way to go, but we don't know how much lower to offer. We will only know when we have paid for the survey, and if the vendor refuses to budge, the money on the survey will have been wasted. (How much are structural surveys anyway? Anyone any idea?) If the Halifax refused to offer a mortgage until more is known, then I am guessing that no-one else will get a mortgage on it either for the same reason. So, he should realise that this is a problem that will not disappear overnight.
Mrmaggit - yes, vendor is a property solicitor, and a slightly difficult guy to deal with. Any negotiations will be via our solicitors. The vendor apparently lost his temper with the mortgage surveyor when the survey was done, because the surveyor asked the vendor to move the hoover to allow him access to the basement ...
Fluffy - Thanks. Good point about the suveyor recommending the most comprehensive fix out there. But this is the only one we would accept, and the vendor will be paying for it if we buy the house.
Stedale - How much do we like the house? Well, it's a nice house. And we like it. But if it is going to be very absorbant of cash, then our heads must rule our hearts. (Typically, I am less attached than Mrs zcacogp!) Walking away is one very serious option at the moment. The offer we made is pretty much the market value, and we are not going to be footing big extra bills on top of this.
Having said all this, I rather suspect that the vendor will refuse to reduce the price come what may. In which case, getting out now is the best option.
Heigh ho. Thanks again to everyone for the comments. We'll see where we go from here. Speaking with the solicitor this afternoon, and I'll see what he says.
Oli.
mrmaggit said:Just because he's a property solicitor, it doesn't mean he knows much about building defects.
If it was anybody else, I'd consider doing a deal with the vendor to cover the repair costs.
However, that is based on the vendor being reasonable. If he's a property solicitor, he should have know this before the house was put on the market. I'd now be considering walking away.
And the only 100% binding agreement is to pay less for the house.
AC79xxx, Yes, he could do the repairs, but we would want an independant assessment of the quality of them. We would be happy to agree to buy, if he was to fix a date for completion (i.e. by which they need to be done) and agree to independant assessment of them. Buyers are thin on the ground, but it is a popular area we are looking in.
Steve944t - Very good idea about talking to a roofer. I'll try that link immediately. Thanks very much - if they can quote for free, this could be the way to go.
I'm not that averse to agreeing to the purchase if he pays for the repairs, as long as the date of completion is set before the work is commenced, and there is a good penalty clause in there. It would only be agreed as complete subject to independant inspection.
Oli.
Steve944t - Very good idea about talking to a roofer. I'll try that link immediately. Thanks very much - if they can quote for free, this could be the way to go.
I'm not that averse to agreeing to the purchase if he pays for the repairs, as long as the date of completion is set before the work is commenced, and there is a good penalty clause in there. It would only be agreed as complete subject to independant inspection.
Oli.
Oli, Sorry all is not roses.
You should tell the seller's agent of the problem, they may well already know, and get them to arrange for at least two local builders/roofers to look at the property and to price the job up - best and worst case.
Take their quotes and work out the average price. Then offer to buy for original price less the average. Any decent roofing firm should be able to price a job without a full survey in front of them and once you've got figures you can see if it is worth the cost of getting a full structural.
Any trouble from the Seller walk away. Don't even think about sticking it out. I deal with a number of issues like this time and again. I find it funny that 99% of the time my gut instinct and 'feel' for the situation is proven correct. If it don't look like meat and don't smell like meat it probably ain't meat, if you get my drift!
John
EDIT – Seen your other posts since I started to type original message but got sidetracked before posting.
WALK AWAY. Go looking for another property over the weekend. This guy won’t budge. A surveyor friend of mine told me that one of the surest signs that there is some problem with a property is difficult vendors when they are going round.
>> Edited by rude-boy on Thursday 24th March 11:55
You should tell the seller's agent of the problem, they may well already know, and get them to arrange for at least two local builders/roofers to look at the property and to price the job up - best and worst case.
Take their quotes and work out the average price. Then offer to buy for original price less the average. Any decent roofing firm should be able to price a job without a full survey in front of them and once you've got figures you can see if it is worth the cost of getting a full structural.
Any trouble from the Seller walk away. Don't even think about sticking it out. I deal with a number of issues like this time and again. I find it funny that 99% of the time my gut instinct and 'feel' for the situation is proven correct. If it don't look like meat and don't smell like meat it probably ain't meat, if you get my drift!
John
EDIT – Seen your other posts since I started to type original message but got sidetracked before posting.
WALK AWAY. Go looking for another property over the weekend. This guy won’t budge. A surveyor friend of mine told me that one of the surest signs that there is some problem with a property is difficult vendors when they are going round.
>> Edited by rude-boy on Thursday 24th March 11:55
zcacogp said:
Crumbs! Lots of very helpful posts - really, PH comes up trumps once again. Thank you very much to everyone who has posted.
We know that it had roof problems - he tried to sell last summer, but the roof started leaking, probably on account of it sagging (the slates were replaced with tiles about 5 years ago, which are heavier and the roof can't take the weight.) He didn't manage to sell, but had the leak fixed and let the house instead. The mortgage surveyor is strongly of the opinion that it wasn't fixed, instead it was botched, and this needs removing, the roof at least strengthening, and then properly sealed. (The vendor had it done with heavy felt, apparently it should have been done with lead.) However, it may be too far gone, which means a whole new roof ... and the sagging roof has caused the back wall to move a little, leading to cracked lintels.
.
rsvmilly, I was just guessing that something like this had happened, hence my statement. I just had a hunch, if you like.
maggit
ok here's my 0.02p
don't arrange a full structural survey yet. This will not tell you how much the roof will cost to repair, they will advise you to contact a builder roofer. Get a couple of quotes from roofers who will be working for you (not the vendor). Then take these estimates to the vendor ( via sollictor ). These will give a ballpark figure, if he is not prepared to reduce the price by that amount pull out of the deal. If he is then go ahead with the structural survey anyway.
We purchased a house in September where faults were identified ( a few thousand to fix), but the vendor had us over a barrel as our buyer was tired of waitiing due to te fact that we had already had 3 prospective vendors pull out on us. There turned out to be lots of other problems with the house not picked up by the survey, now we hate the house and don't have the cash to have all of the work done. Our experience of owning our "dream" house is now tainted and we are toying with the idea of putting it back on the market.
It's a buyers market, if he's bodged the roof what else will he have compromised on ?.
don't arrange a full structural survey yet. This will not tell you how much the roof will cost to repair, they will advise you to contact a builder roofer. Get a couple of quotes from roofers who will be working for you (not the vendor). Then take these estimates to the vendor ( via sollictor ). These will give a ballpark figure, if he is not prepared to reduce the price by that amount pull out of the deal. If he is then go ahead with the structural survey anyway.
We purchased a house in September where faults were identified ( a few thousand to fix), but the vendor had us over a barrel as our buyer was tired of waitiing due to te fact that we had already had 3 prospective vendors pull out on us. There turned out to be lots of other problems with the house not picked up by the survey, now we hate the house and don't have the cash to have all of the work done. Our experience of owning our "dream" house is now tainted and we are toying with the idea of putting it back on the market.
It's a buyers market, if he's bodged the roof what else will he have compromised on ?.
Rude-boy John, Thanks again for the advice. It's welcomed. It's a private sale, so no agents involved. However, getting a roofer in to price up the job is a very good way forward, then using these quotes to neogitate a reduction in price.
Gut feeling? Hmm. My gut feeling is that it is a desirable house, in a good location, with alot going for it. If the vendor was a little less twitchy then I would be contemplating moving forward with a fairly cool head, thinking "This is a minor hitch in a big purchase. But these things happen." The fact that the vendor is a difficult guy to deal with leads me to think that he won't agree to any price reduction. And, even if he does, we are not out of the woods yet, there may yet be other things wrong and we could just end up throwing more and more money and heartache down the pan. Getting out now may be the cheapest option in the long run, and is the only garunteed one.
AC79xxx - yes, I do have mail, very many thanks. I'll be replying too.
Mrmaggit, your hunch did you proud.
Thank you all again for your input. I'll keep you posted when I have spoken with the solicitors.
Oli.
Gut feeling? Hmm. My gut feeling is that it is a desirable house, in a good location, with alot going for it. If the vendor was a little less twitchy then I would be contemplating moving forward with a fairly cool head, thinking "This is a minor hitch in a big purchase. But these things happen." The fact that the vendor is a difficult guy to deal with leads me to think that he won't agree to any price reduction. And, even if he does, we are not out of the woods yet, there may yet be other things wrong and we could just end up throwing more and more money and heartache down the pan. Getting out now may be the cheapest option in the long run, and is the only garunteed one.
AC79xxx - yes, I do have mail, very many thanks. I'll be replying too.
Mrmaggit, your hunch did you proud.
Thank you all again for your input. I'll keep you posted when I have spoken with the solicitors.
Oli.
ledger said:Mr Ledger, this is sound advice, and I think this is the route we'll proceed along. (And probably have a look at other houses while we are at it.)
ok here's my 0.02p
don't arrange a full structural survey yet. This will not tell you how much the roof will cost to repair, they will advise you to contact a builder roofer. Get a couple of quotes from roofers who will be working for you (not the vendor). Then take these estimates to the vendor ( via sollictor ). These will give a ballpark figure, if he is not prepared to reduce the price by that amount pull out of the deal. If he is then go ahead with the structural survey anyway.
ledger said:Sorry to hear your tale of woe. We would dearly like to avoid a situation like this. I hope your situation improves either way.
We purchased a house in September where faults were identified ( a few thousand to fix), but the vendor had us over a barrel as our buyer was tired of waitiing due to te fact that we had already had 3 prospective vendors pull out on us. There turned out to be lots of other problems with the house not picked up by the survey, now we hate the house and don't have the cash to have all of the work done. Our experience of owning our "dream" house is now tainted and we are toying with the idea of putting it back on the market.
ledger said:That's a very valid point ... and a full and detailed survey may come back with a list as long as your arm of problems. And if we have only negotiated a reduction for the roof, not for the other bits as well, we'll look pretty stupid.
It's a buyers market, if he's bodged the roof what else will he have compromised on ?.
Why is life so complicated?
Oli.
zcacogp said:
Gut feeling? Hmm. My gut feeling is that it is a desirable house, in a good location, with alot going for it.
then
why did it not sell initially, I'm presuming he was not prepared to compromise last time
why is the vendor so twitchy and awkward
How long has it been on the market, if it's that good it should have been snapped up.
Do you really want the hassle of having a new roof and possibly structural work on the house whilst you are trying to live there. How will this affect your chain ?, will you need to move into rented accom whilst the work is done.
The only way I would proceed is if he reduced the price to not only cover the work, but also the hassle, i.e. make it a bargain. I can't see him doing this from what you have posted about him.
If you've read my post above you will see I have posted this advice having completely failed to follow it myself and being panicked into buying a house I now detest :-)
>> Edited by ledger on Thursday 24th March 12:24
ledger said:It didn't sell initially because of the roof problem. I think the buyer may just be twitchy because that is his nature ... or it could be that it hides secrets that he would rather were not known.
then
why did it not sell initially
why is the vendor so twitchy awkward
How long has it been on the market, if it's that good it should have been snapped up.
Do you really want the hassle of having a new roof and possibly structural work on the house whilst you are trying to live there. How will this affect your chain ?, will you need to move into rented accom whilst the work is done.
The only way I would proceed is if he reduced the price to not only cover the work, but also the hassle, i.e. make it a bargain. I can't see him doing this from what you have postred about him.
If he reduces the price of the property then we will ask for a larger reduction than the cost of repair, for exactly the reason you mentioned - hassle. (This raises the question of how much to charge for hassle? I am thinking about an additional 33% of the total cost of the repairs - which would include plastering and redecorating if the roof is coming off ...) No, I really can't see him doing this either. In which case it's game off.
Thankfully no chain to affect. We are not needing to sell to move on. The vendor is also not resident in the property as he is letting it. (But he won't want to do major works on it while he has tenants.)
ledger said:Yes, I have read it, and it means that your advice is coming from a position of experience. Which makes it most valuable - thank you.
If you've read my post above you will see I have posted this advice having completely failed to follow it myself and being panicked into buying a house I now detest :-)
Oli.
Regarding structural surveys, my own recent experience leads me to say dont bother. I paid out £900 and in return received a nicely bound manual. The gist of it- "roof looks dodgy, seek specialist advice", "wiring looks dodgy, seek specialist advice", "lots of damp..." you get the general idea. It told me absolutely nothing that I didnt already know (having said that, showing it to the vendor did help in the renegotiation of the purchase price). Far better to get the specialists in first, even if you have to pay them for their inspection, as I did with a damp specialist.
This is not a criticism of surveyors as such, as I got what I asked for - a general survey of the structure of the house. But it didnt give me any in depth information on the specific faults.
In the end it comes down to your get feeling, and how much you really want the house. In my case, my fiancee and I had fallen in love with the house before even seeing inside it. It will be our "dream cottage" and as such there was going to have to be something pretty drastically wrong for us to not buy it(though some would argue that a dodgy roof, no damp course, ancient wiring and plumbing, rotten windows that you darent risk opening and an interior that has not been decorated since those tasteful days of the 70's would constitute "drastically wrong"
)
If you love it, and if you are planning on staying there long enough for your additional investment to be worthwhile then go for it. If not, keep looking. Best of luck either way.
Steve
This is not a criticism of surveyors as such, as I got what I asked for - a general survey of the structure of the house. But it didnt give me any in depth information on the specific faults.
In the end it comes down to your get feeling, and how much you really want the house. In my case, my fiancee and I had fallen in love with the house before even seeing inside it. It will be our "dream cottage" and as such there was going to have to be something pretty drastically wrong for us to not buy it(though some would argue that a dodgy roof, no damp course, ancient wiring and plumbing, rotten windows that you darent risk opening and an interior that has not been decorated since those tasteful days of the 70's would constitute "drastically wrong"
) If you love it, and if you are planning on staying there long enough for your additional investment to be worthwhile then go for it. If not, keep looking. Best of luck either way.
Steve
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