Lets talk about TAX

[toppstuff]

Its election time, so lets talk about taxes. After all is said is done, its one of the big issues. If not THE big issue.

I pay 40% tax plus a chunk of national insurance. So pretty much half of everything I earn is taken away from me.

To put it another way , in a typical working week I work flat out 12 hour days, from Monday until midday Wednesday, to pay for this "society" that we call Great Britain.

Its only from midday wednesday until close of business Friday I work for me.

But that is not all. Having given half of all I earn ( and therefore half of my time, to funding the state ) I then face VAT when I decide to buy something.

So, lets add this up. I pay 50% to the state, and then another 17.5% of what is left whenever I buy something with what is left.

Is this too much? I think so.

Do my taxes contribute to healthier society, so that in the big scheme of things I am better off anyway?

Well, on current evidence of the shape of surburban UK, with its yobs and chav culture, I am not so sure...

So what is happening to the cash I hand over, and am I getting value for it?

Someone convince me please. Why should I redistribute my wealth? And would society be "better"if I did?

[Jaglover]

Don't want to be pedantic Topstuff-but the highest direct rate of tax you pay is 41%.

40% tax band, plus 1% NI surcharge.

Taxes are of course too high in this country.

However I believe that what taxes that are imposed should be proportional to the ability to pay.

[RickApple]

What about council tax, car tax, inheritance tax etc etc?

[off_again]

RickApple said:

What about council tax, car tax, inheritance tax etc etc?

... and insurance premium tax, and......

[Jaglover]

RickApple said:

What about council tax, car tax, inheritance tax etc etc?

you note I said DIRECT tax-he was saying he pays a chunk of NIC on top of his 40% tax band.

[NorthernBoy]

toppstuff said:

I pay 40% tax plus a chunk of national insurance.

Is that really true?

You must be, literally, earning millions per year if you are paying 40% (to the nearest %) in income tax.

Are you sure you are not paying a marginal rate of 40%, which is very different?

If you earn, say, 200,000 pounds a year, you pay about 37% income tax.

My friends in the US are jealous about how low taxes are here compared to in New York. It is always surprising that people here think that we pay much more out of our income than they do.

[toppstuff]

Exactly, plus the extras that I should not pay for but feel that I ought to, like private dental care, BUPA, plus the taxation on pension fund dividends.

All in all, I think the 50% rate is not so far off...

And the questiuon remains, am I getting value for money?

[Jaglover]

toppstuff said:

Exactly, plus the extras that I should not pay for but feel that I ought to, like private dental care, BUPA, plus the taxation on pension fund dividends. All in all, I think the 50% rate is not so far off... And the questiuon remains, am I getting value for money?

No you are not getting value for money no

[Rob P]

Topstuff - would you feel differently if you were seeing more "value" for money out of your tax?

[toppstuff]

NorthernBoy said:

toppstuff said: I pay 40% tax plus a chunk of national insurance. Is that really true? You must be, literally, earning millions per year if you are paying 40% (to the nearest %) in income tax. Are you sure you are not paying a marginal rate of 40%, which is very different? If you earn, say, 200,000 pounds a year, you pay about 37% income tax. My friends in the US are jealous about how low taxes are here compared to in New York. It is always surprising that people here think that we pay much more out of our income than they do.

A fair point. For the sake of debate, lets assume that I earn something near those upper levels. Even then, we are still looking at near 40% being given away.

And lets not forget that the top 10-20% of taxpayers provide something like 60/80% or tax revenues. The old 80/20 rule or nearabouts is never far away...


And my question remains.

Is "society" healthier for the money I give to it? Is it being used wisely by people who are accountable to me ? Do I get value?

What would happen to the UK if I paid less? If I paid more, would I see a visible improvement to the well being of this country?

[Jaglover]

Is your money being used efficiently-NO

Should the rich pay more tax than the poor-YES

They are two seperate issues.

[toppstuff]

Rob P said:

Topstuff - would you feel differently if you were seeing more "value" for money out of your tax?

If there was less vandalism, shorter waiting lists, less burglary, free dental care, more support for elderly relatives, smaller classrooms, a police force that actually cared if I was burgled etc... then yes, I might feel differently.

But none of these things seem any better. If anything, they seem to be getting worse.

So can I have my money back?

[HarryW]

In answer to the original question, in a word NO IMHO.
Regardless if someone abroad thinks we are undertaxed I think we are overtaxed. Thats like saying I get punched in the face twice a day and you get only punched the once, still not right is it .

Tax has become the life blood of this 'service' industry based country . It cannot be sustainable to have no tangible output with which to generate wealth IMHO. We are slowly sinking with the self serving bemoth they call government and all of its associate quango's. Again all IMHO etc............

Harry

[Jaglover]

toppstuff said:

If there was less vandalism, shorter waiting lists, less burglary, free dental care, more support for elderly relatives, smaller classrooms, a police force that actually cared if I was burgled etc... then yes, I might feel differently. But none of these things seem any better. If anything, they seem to be getting worse. So can I have my money back?

Not that I like defending Labour-but Burglary has fallen in recent years in both Police Statistics and the British Crime survey.

Violent crime, and especially violence against a stranger has risen sharply.

[t1grm]

UK has some of the lowest taxes in the EU IIRC.

[Rob P]

toppstuff said:

Rob P said: Topstuff - would you feel differently if you were seeing more "value" for money out of your tax? If there was less vandalism, shorter waiting lists, less burglary, free dental care, more support for elderly relatives, smaller classrooms, a police force that actually cared if I was burgled etc... then yes, I might feel differently. But none of these things seem any better. If anything, they seem to be getting worse. So can I have my money back?

if only....

I read (probably on PH!) a interesting idea:

Scrap income tax, but hike the the tax on petrol, beer, fags, VAT, energy, property......you name it. That way you simply pay for everything as a function of how much you use it.
Not quite sure it would work though!

[Rob P]

Jaglover said:

toppstuff said: If there was less vandalism, shorter waiting lists, less burglary, free dental care, more support for elderly relatives, smaller classrooms, a police force that actually cared if I was burgled etc... then yes, I might feel differently. But none of these things seem any better. If anything, they seem to be getting worse. So can I have my money back? Not that I like defending Labour-but Burglary has fallen in recent years in both Police Statistics and the British Crime survey. Violent crime, and especially violence against a stranger has risen sharply.

The problem with these "statistics" is that the definitions are always changed when it comes to crime to suit the argument at the time.

In my own personal perception I think the main increase over the last 5 years has been anti-social crime....but thats a seperate matter!

[toppstuff]

Take dental care as an example.

Impossible in my area to find an NHS dentist, to provide a service that technically I am already paying for.

Local private dentist bloke ( nice guy, big house, Porsche Cayenne, not exacly poor..) reckons that £1300 should sort my gob out for the next few years.

What do I do? Pay the private dentist so that he gets to take his family to Tuscany this summer on the back of my bill, or refuse on principal, wait to find an NHS dentist and have bad teeth in the meantime.

Surely, this is a TAX in all but name. Having to pay extra for services I have already paid for is not on.

£1300. Thats the best part of £1900 gross before tax. Where did the £600 go? Can I have it back? I've got toothache !

>> Edited by toppstuff on Saturday 9th April 22:36

[NorthernBoy]

toppstuff said:

Rob P said: Topstuff - would you feel differently if you were seeing more "value" for money out of your tax? If there was less vandalism, shorter waiting lists, less burglary, free dental care, more support for elderly relatives, smaller classrooms, a police force that actually cared if I was burgled etc... then yes, I might feel differently.

But whatever the absolute level of any of those things, you'd probably still think that it was not good value.

Look at it this way, it might help. You can only earn what you do because our society is ordered the way it is. If you had to sit on your own pile of berries, never leaving them, for fear of injury or murder (like in Somalia), then you would be much worse off. Every developed country that is anything like self supporting (as opposed to tax havens, which obviously not everyone can be) has a similar level of tax to ours. the differences are not huge. look at the USA, Switzerland, France, Swedenn, Japan. They all have a tax burden that is, give or take, around the same as ours.

[parrot of doom]

I think you need to visit some other countries to decide if you're getting value for money. No doubt you have, but its really the only way to get a balanced view on the subject.

Personally, I don't think we get such a bad deal living here, its one of the best countries in the world. Saying that, I would prefer to pay less tax, and decide for myself what I should be working for.