Discussion
I've heard about a million different versions of this
I think the best source is some Dutch bloke, but I forget his name. IIRC they CAN (ie they won't) produce 50 times the power used to make them in their lifetime
Runnig at 50% efficiency (generous) that would take 4 years if they last for 100
All figures made up as I went along
I think the best source is some Dutch bloke, but I forget his name. IIRC they CAN (ie they won't) produce 50 times the power used to make them in their lifetime
Runnig at 50% efficiency (generous) that would take 4 years if they last for 100
All figures made up as I went along
You would expect that they would know the figures, and quoting them publicly suggests they are confident that they are accurate.
The discussion we had last time had a lot of 'information' given by people who clearly didn't want windfarms in their back yard. I don't believe the Greens are so obsessed with wind power that they would want to distort the figures in order to get wind farms built - there are many other battles for them to fight. I'd also doubt they'd fight specifically for wind farms, given that they're not a 'perfect' energy source (such as solar, and in some cases hydro) - wind farms have clear environmental impact - just not as much as the anti's would have us believe.
The discussion we had last time had a lot of 'information' given by people who clearly didn't want windfarms in their back yard. I don't believe the Greens are so obsessed with wind power that they would want to distort the figures in order to get wind farms built - there are many other battles for them to fight. I'd also doubt they'd fight specifically for wind farms, given that they're not a 'perfect' energy source (such as solar, and in some cases hydro) - wind farms have clear environmental impact - just not as much as the anti's would have us believe.
robdickinson said:
Making steel and concrete takes masses of energy, more than the turbine makes in its life I dont know.
ANd quite a lot 'evil' CO2 - all up front as well, in an attempt to increase the published figures while the 'savings', if there are any in real terms (how could anyone know?)and if they they have any importance, will come in dribs and drabs over 25 years.
At that point the entire device will need to be replaced complete with its entire infrastructure - read large concrete base embedded in the ground (Loads of CO2 in concrete manufacturing). Cost of removing the old base? Nothing, leave it where it is to avoid any pollution that may be created by its removal.
And, of course, reduce the costs to the developers - who will probably include Greenpeace. They already have significant interest in off-shore developments. Which is why they had activists operating in South Wales persuading people that a 'farm' in the Bristol Channel was a good thing.
xm5er said:
Are windfarms subsidised in any way?
Onshore Wind Farms cost 5.3 p per KWH. Gas currently costs 3p (after recent price rises)
The government requires generators to generate at least 4.3% of electricity from renewable sources, rising to 15pc by 2015.
The National Audit Office estimates that total financial assistance for the renewable energy business is £700m a year. By 2010 it will reach £1 Bn.
You will notice this in your electricity bill.
JagLover said:
Are windfarms subsidised in any way?
Onshore Wind Farms cost 5.3 p per KWH. Gas currently costs 3p (after recent price rises)
Do you mean gas or electricity generated by CCGT power stations?
Either way there is a place for them in the trading market place. How does it compare with Nuclear power (incuding and not including the costs of decommissioning).
JagLover said:
The government requires generators to generate at least 4.3% of electricity from renewable sources, rising to 15pc by 2015.
The National Audit Office estimates that total financial assistance for the renewable energy business is £700m a year. By 2010 it will reach £1 Bn.
You will notice this in your electricity bill.
Does any of that go towards Nuclear plant decomissioning.
BTW is the climate change levy only included in business power bills or do we get it on our home bills too?
xm5er said:
Do you mean gas or electricity generated by CCGT power stations?
Either way there is a place for them in the trading market place. How does it compare with Nuclear power (incuding and not including the costs of decommissioning).
That is the cost of Gas Power stations.
Without considering decommissioning costs Nuclear costs 2.2p per KWH.
I did have a crazy idea a while back involving an old washing machine and some bits and bobs.
Basically attach a few blades to a hub and bolt that onto the motor out of the washing machine. Watch it generate electricity! Plumb it into the house electrics and let it run all the standby devices....
Cost = a few bits of wire etc. Ok there was enviromental cost to produce the washing machine but if it's broken and going to be thrown out....
Would it work?
(I seem to remember a report from the former Yugoslavia where they had put the washing machine in the river and were using the water to turn the drum and therefore generate enough electricity to power a lightbulb in a basement.)
Basically attach a few blades to a hub and bolt that onto the motor out of the washing machine. Watch it generate electricity! Plumb it into the house electrics and let it run all the standby devices....
Cost = a few bits of wire etc. Ok there was enviromental cost to produce the washing machine but if it's broken and going to be thrown out....
Would it work?
(I seem to remember a report from the former Yugoslavia where they had put the washing machine in the river and were using the water to turn the drum and therefore generate enough electricity to power a lightbulb in a basement.)
Biggest problem with wind power is that a back-up has to exist, we can't wait for a windy day.
A complete and seperately (conventional) powered network has to be built and maintained. This might add a little to the overall cost and efficiency.
Same goes for solar. Additions to the existing system, little else.
Tidal is probably the best source of "natural" power, been used for a long time elsewhere, environmentalists don't like this though. Think of the birds and fish......
>> Edited by superflid on Tuesday 19th April 13:53
A complete and seperately (conventional) powered network has to be built and maintained. This might add a little to the overall cost and efficiency.
Same goes for solar. Additions to the existing system, little else.
Tidal is probably the best source of "natural" power, been used for a long time elsewhere, environmentalists don't like this though. Think of the birds and fish......
>> Edited by superflid on Tuesday 19th April 13:53
jacobyte said:
You would expect that they would know the figures, and quoting them publicly suggests they are confident that they are accurate.
So the Safety Camera Parterships are absolutely correct?
My point was that publicly quoting a direct figure like that invites corrections. The safety camera partnership (almost) never quotes useful numbers, just vague arm waving secondary statistics. In this case, a wind turbine either makes the energy used in it's manufacture in 6 months, or it doesn't.
The whole argument about energy used to create one of these things is a bit silly anyway - unless the general public is willing to put up with power cuts and/or huge price increases, we have to build something to generate power. The people who fight against these on the grounds of 'blot on the landscape' seem to believe that power generation is ok so long as it's not in their back yard.
Plotloss said:
Does anyone know how much energy it takes to smelt 1kg of steel?
A generic 60m (v.small) windmill mass specifications:
Blade 6.5t each
Rotor 37.8t
Nacelle (including heli-hoist) 64.2t
Tower 140.3t
Generator 2.0MW
(www.natwindpower.co.uk/northhoyle/gsv80.pdf )
95% of the parts are made from various steels, Chrome or GRP, the rest is wire, oils, etc...)
world-aluminium.org said:
On average, around the world, it takes some 15.7 kWh of electricity to produce one kilogram of aluminium from alumina. Design and process improvements have progressively reduced this figure from about 21kWh in the 1950's.
(from www.world-aluminium.org/production/smelting/
No idea about cost or amount of waste.
1W running for 1 hour is 3600J, so 15.7kW for 1 hour is 56520000J or 56.52MJ of energy per kilo plus waste(
) bateman-ferroalloy.com said:
BATEMAN has completed an upgrade of Ferrometals' Furnace 4 (F4) in Witbank, RSA, for Newsam Pty Ltd (a joint venture between Samancor and Poschrome) to increase the furnace's production capacity from 100 000 t/yr of ferrochrome to 125 000 t/yr.
...
The nominal operating power is expected to be about 48-50 MW
...
Plus all the pollution.
Meaning running at full tilt for one whole year, consumes:1576800000 Joules or 1576.8 MJ per year for 125000t. That's 12MJ per kilo plus waste (running at 50MW for easier maths), which is good compared to Alu.
I can't find figures for smaelting iron or the costs of waste, but we can be nice and say 10MJ per kilo plus waste.
Cost of making chimicals and parts for GRP laying is something else I have no idea about, so I'll be very nice and say 1MJ per kilo including waste.
from natwindpower.co.uk it looks like each of the parts are pretty much all made out of iron and the blades are made out of GRP. The rest of it is a bit of chrome and then all the nasty stuff that oils the bearings and covers the wires (again, no idea of costs (enviornmental or energy).
so, in terms of pure production energy costs:
140.3t + 64.2t + 37.8t * 90% = 218.07t of iron.
This will require 218,070,000 * 10,000,000 = 2180700000000000J of energy, or 2180.7TJ just to build, not to install or maintain, or dealing with all the nasty waste.
The blades cost 6.5t*3 = 19.5t of GRP.
This would require 19,500,000 * 1,000,000 = 1950000000000J or 1950GJ just to build, not to install or maintain.
(NB both these values are based on my estimates).
This give a total of 2182.65TJ of energy required to recoupe the costs of just building a single wind turbine.
As the turbine generator is rated at 2.0MW, lets assume that's what it runs at, with zero costs of running, monitoring, or hooking up to the grid.
This would mean operating at 100% at 24x7 for 365days, it would take 2,000,000 * 60 * 60 * 24 = 172800000000J per day = 172.8GJ per day (0.1728TJ).
So that's 2182.65 / 0.1728 = 12631.07639 days AT FULL TILT to recoupe costs fo just makeing the raw materials, not inculding costs of casting, assembling, installing, maintaining, etc, etc, etc.
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