Britain's cold war secret weapons . C4 now
Discussion
Good programme.
I particular liked the "musical eyepatch" technique developed by the V - bomber pilots.
The Valiant at Hendon is the only survivor of the entire fleet. It think it is the one that dropped the H-Bomb on Christmas Island.
It was interesting seeing the "wash" applied to the Canberra which was tasked to fly into the radioactive cloud. Was that Canberra scrapped after the tests or just given a good wash down, I wonder.
I particular liked the "musical eyepatch" technique developed by the V - bomber pilots.
The Valiant at Hendon is the only survivor of the entire fleet. It think it is the one that dropped the H-Bomb on Christmas Island.
It was interesting seeing the "wash" applied to the Canberra which was tasked to fly into the radioactive cloud. Was that Canberra scrapped after the tests or just given a good wash down, I wonder.
I enjoyed that programe. Interesting to see all the secret bits and the 'old' film. Was suprised how that Vulcan just shot up in the air after take off! Looked very agile indeed. I also found it interesting how well we developed technology, thanks to Rolls Royce, BAE etc, with the H-bomb/Blue streak etc and seemed to give all our technological findings to the Americans. I think it all startted with the American Bell company visiting Miles Aircraft and taking everything. We handed the sound barrier to the USA on a plate with cancelling the Miles M52.
In regards to the cold war today, how is our nuclear deterrent holding up these days ?
Regards John S
In regards to the cold war today, how is our nuclear deterrent holding up these days ?
Regards John S
I'm not sure that we handed the airspeed record to the americans.
The americans broke it first, true. They did it at altitude, by chemical rocket. The Brits were the first to do it at sea level under the power of a jet engine.
Edited to add>>
That's much, much, harder, and we only did it about a year after them.
>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 24th April 22:14
The americans broke it first, true. They did it at altitude, by chemical rocket. The Brits were the first to do it at sea level under the power of a jet engine.
Edited to add>>
That's much, much, harder, and we only did it about a year after them.
>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 24th April 22:14
Within a year of the XS-1 breaking the sound barrier, the Americans were testing the prototype of the world's first transonic jet fighter, the F-86 Sabre.
Bell had been designing the XS-1 BEFORE they saw any of Miles' work. However, they were no doubt grateful to get a look at the data Miles had gathered in their supersonic project and I'm sure they were able to adjust their own plane accordingly.
And of course, it was extremely mean of them not to allow the Miles team to see what they themselves were up to.
Bell had been designing the XS-1 BEFORE they saw any of Miles' work. However, they were no doubt grateful to get a look at the data Miles had gathered in their supersonic project and I'm sure they were able to adjust their own plane accordingly.
And of course, it was extremely mean of them not to allow the Miles team to see what they themselves were up to.
Eric Mc said:
Within a year of the XS-1 breaking the sound barrier, the Americans were testing the prototype of the world's first transonic jet fighter, the F-86 Sabre.
Bell had been designing the XS-1 BEFORE they saw any of Miles' work. However, they were no doubt grateful to get a look at the data Miles had gathered in their supersonic project and I'm sure they were able to adjust their own plane accordingly.
And of course, it was extremely mean of them not to allow the Miles team to see what they themselves were up to.
So am I right about the british airspeed record then? I was sure that the brits had it at sea level.
Eric Mc said:
Bell had been designing the XS-1 BEFORE they saw any of Miles' work. However, they were no doubt grateful to get a look at the data Miles had gathered in their supersonic project and I'm sure they were able to adjust their own plane accordingly.
Yes but the Americans couldn't make it work (massive tailplane issues, wasn't it?), which is why they turned to the British. The British information wasn't just a fairly good read for them, it provided all the answers that they couldn't find for themselves. Britain would've done it alone if the bloody (Labour?) Government hadn't cancelled the project - the Yanks couldn't.
dilbert said:
Within a year of the XS-1 breaking the sound barrier, the Americans were testing the prototype of the world's first transonic jet fighter, the F-86 Sabre.
Bell had been designing the XS-1 BEFORE they saw any of Miles' work. However, they were no doubt grateful to get a look at the data Miles had gathered in their supersonic project and I'm sure they were able to adjust their own plane accordingly.
And of course, it was extremely mean of them not to allow the Miles team to see what they themselves were up to.
So am I right about the british airspeed record then? I was sure that the brits had it at sea level.
nerdy jacket time.
if memory serves me correct:
we built a jet aircraft to break the sound barrier, whereas the yanks were using rockets. i think someone (accidently) discovered that by dumping fuel into the jet engine after combustion you created a whole load of boost, which was then called afterburner. and it was that discovery that was going to push jet engined aircraft through the sound barrier.
the project that we had had already created an unmanned remote control model 2/3rds size (?) that had broken the sound barrier.
the key to breaking the sound barrier was really to have control after you had broken it. the yanks used a tail fin with flaps, whereas the limeys used a moving tail fin.
what would happen is that supersonic speeds (and speeds close to supersonic) the airflow over the wing would lock the flappy bits that allow control the aircraft solid. so unless you decelerated you did not have control.
i remember a documentary with Chuck Yaeger talking about this secret invention called the "moving tail plane" that the Americans had discovered and that was why it was all kept secret when they got the record.
the documentary then cut to a very old twee English engineer who explained that the limeys had already figured out that you needed this invention before they even started on the supersonic project. he then showed you the pictures of the remote control model with the moving tail plane.
limeys 1 yanks 0.
apologises if i got any of that wrong.
Thanks for that, Tinman.
I didn't think I was far wrong. I cant vouch for all of the details you offer, but it's entirely consistent with what I was thinking.
Edited to add>>
I belive our timing markers were the Dover cliffs, and Bognor seafront.
IIRC It occured on a routine practice mission, and history states as such.
Further edited to add >>
I bet it cleaned the cobwebs out of the Brighton Piers.
>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 24th April 23:50
I didn't think I was far wrong. I cant vouch for all of the details you offer, but it's entirely consistent with what I was thinking.
Edited to add>>
I belive our timing markers were the Dover cliffs, and Bognor seafront.
IIRC It occured on a routine practice mission, and history states as such.
Further edited to add >>
I bet it cleaned the cobwebs out of the Brighton Piers.
>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 24th April 23:50
tinman0 said:
i remember a documentary with Chuck Yaeger talking about this secret invention called the "moving tail plane" that the Americans had discovered and that was why it was all kept secret when they got the record.
the documentary then cut to a very old twee English engineer who explained that the limeys had already figured out that you needed this invention before they even started on the supersonic project. he then showed you the pictures of the remote control model with the moving tail plane.
limeys 1 yanks 0.
apologises if i got any of that wrong.
I remember that doc, think it was Clarkson's Extreme Machines. Clarkson got fed up with the americans claiming they invented everything and proceeded to explain about the Horizontal Stabiliser concept being the key to controlled supersonic flight and interviewed an engineer (Dennis Bancroft - proper Farnborough Boffin name!) who worked for Miles Aircraft Co. The Miles M.52 design concept had the stabilizer incorporated and its is something they had tested on a prop plane as early as 1943.
In classic Clarkson style, he then went to Capitol Hill wearing a sandwich board and megaphone reeling off British inventions (incl. the US Navy) also claiming that the only useful invention the Americans had contributed to the world was Condensed Milk.
DanCov said:
Very interesting how we devise new and more devastating ways of killing everything!
It's madness, if you want an invention to be realised, design it to kill lots of people. I was chatting to a weapons chap in the know and he was telling me about some anti-personell devices and how they work. The fact that my taxes pay for the development and manufacture of this shit makes me mad.
Civilised?The XS-1 programme began slightly before the M.52.
The Americans chose rocket power for two reasons - they already had a fairly advanced rocket programme on place by then and were certainly only second to Germany in rocket technology at the time. Secondly, they were definitely behind both Britain and Germany with jet technology so felt that going forward with a jet engines (this was 1942 remember) was considered technologically too risky.
The M.52 WAS more advanced than the XS-1, there is no doubt about it. And it is true that a 1/3 model did exceed the speed of sound - although I think by the time that was flown, the project had already been cancelled and the XS-1 had already broken the sound barrier.
As for speed records, the XS-1 (later X-1) never obtained a ratified FAI world speed record because of the fact that it was air launched. In the 1940s and 1950s, most of these records were obtained by prototypes or pre-production models of jet fighters. Until the mid 1950s, all these records had to be set at low level. This was to facilitate the observations of the timing officials. As speeds grew and timing gear became more sophisticated, the altitude limitation was lifted (literally). By the time Peter Twiss broke the 1,000 mph limit in the Fairey FD.2 he was able to do it at 30,000 feet plus.
The topic of the M.52 crops up here on a regular basis. My theory is that Britain was persuaded by the Americans to drop the project in return for the Americans allowing Britain access to US atomic weapons technology. As Britain had no significant atomic weapons programme of its own, it would have needed a leg up from the US to become an atomic power. I think that Prime Minister Atlee felt killing the M.52 was a relatively small price to pay for Britain maintaining its world power status. Don't forget, in 1947 Britain was still considered an Empire.
The Americans chose rocket power for two reasons - they already had a fairly advanced rocket programme on place by then and were certainly only second to Germany in rocket technology at the time. Secondly, they were definitely behind both Britain and Germany with jet technology so felt that going forward with a jet engines (this was 1942 remember) was considered technologically too risky.
The M.52 WAS more advanced than the XS-1, there is no doubt about it. And it is true that a 1/3 model did exceed the speed of sound - although I think by the time that was flown, the project had already been cancelled and the XS-1 had already broken the sound barrier.
As for speed records, the XS-1 (later X-1) never obtained a ratified FAI world speed record because of the fact that it was air launched. In the 1940s and 1950s, most of these records were obtained by prototypes or pre-production models of jet fighters. Until the mid 1950s, all these records had to be set at low level. This was to facilitate the observations of the timing officials. As speeds grew and timing gear became more sophisticated, the altitude limitation was lifted (literally). By the time Peter Twiss broke the 1,000 mph limit in the Fairey FD.2 he was able to do it at 30,000 feet plus.
The topic of the M.52 crops up here on a regular basis. My theory is that Britain was persuaded by the Americans to drop the project in return for the Americans allowing Britain access to US atomic weapons technology. As Britain had no significant atomic weapons programme of its own, it would have needed a leg up from the US to become an atomic power. I think that Prime Minister Atlee felt killing the M.52 was a relatively small price to pay for Britain maintaining its world power status. Don't forget, in 1947 Britain was still considered an Empire.
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