Legal advice needed - help
Discussion
A long time ago, we developed a website for a client for £4000. She had her own web hosting.
At the 95% completion mark (it was all programming) she changed the website login details, and we could not log in and finish work on the site. The project was nearly finished.
reason: She didnt have the funds to pay for it, and wanted to get the money before "committing" herself
Many many months later (today) I phoned her, to find out whether she was in a better position to pay. She hung up, told me she had spoken to her solicitor, and would only deal with me through them
Here's my question: After she took control of the 95% completed project, denying us access to our own work (!Having not paid a penny!) she wanted a little help, to get her site up and running. Because she was funny with me and with money, I said I would only help her if she paid us some money, even a nominal fee.
Can she sue us for loss of earnings, if we refused to help her with work we were contracted to do, because we were not paid? Nothing was signed.
Finally, if her solicitor had instructed her to deal with us in writing only, would she be the one to inform me, or would the solicitor normally do this? I think she's bluffing, wants me off her back, but thought Id put it to the PH crew.
At the 95% completion mark (it was all programming) she changed the website login details, and we could not log in and finish work on the site. The project was nearly finished.
reason: She didnt have the funds to pay for it, and wanted to get the money before "committing" herself
Many many months later (today) I phoned her, to find out whether she was in a better position to pay. She hung up, told me she had spoken to her solicitor, and would only deal with me through them
Here's my question: After she took control of the 95% completed project, denying us access to our own work (!Having not paid a penny!) she wanted a little help, to get her site up and running. Because she was funny with me and with money, I said I would only help her if she paid us some money, even a nominal fee.
Can she sue us for loss of earnings, if we refused to help her with work we were contracted to do, because we were not paid? Nothing was signed.
Finally, if her solicitor had instructed her to deal with us in writing only, would she be the one to inform me, or would the solicitor normally do this? I think she's bluffing, wants me off her back, but thought Id put it to the PH crew.
Hate to say it, but you needed to have in advance:
- Stage payments as the development proceeded, and
- Host the site on your own server until acceptance signed off, and then deploy on the client's servers. With sign off, there is no dispute over work completed.
Maybe for £4k thats a little OTT, but it does avoid these scenarios.
Sorry to not be more helpful...
- Stage payments as the development proceeded, and
- Host the site on your own server until acceptance signed off, and then deploy on the client's servers. With sign off, there is no dispute over work completed.
Maybe for £4k thats a little OTT, but it does avoid these scenarios.
Sorry to not be more helpful...
Size Nine Elm said:I know mate, I know
Hate to say it, but you needed to have in advance:
- Stage payments as the development proceeded, and
- Host the site on your own server until acceptance signed off, and then deploy on the client's servers. With sign off, there is no dispute over work completed.
Maybe for £4k thats a little OTT, but it does avoid these scenarios.
Sorry to not be more helpful...
Learned these things a long time ago, and this was before a long time ago 
She was an existing client, best friends with another long standing client, had £25k to spend on her business a £4k was peanuts to her, at the time (thats the short version of a long story. Everything was fine. The only mistake I made looking back (having appraised the situation) was not listening to my 6th sense.
Back to the legal schmegal - funny things can happy legally. I refused to help her without money. And am worried I could be the one in the wrong. Im not 10)% sure, since she effectively stole the goods without paying, but want the opinion of others.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I dont have anything signed, deleted all the old emails, its my word vs hers, and if I did have 8 hours spare (court time, paperwork time, phone call time) I could likely generate more than that in new leads. I admit I dont like confrontation, but she leaves me stressed to the max, and is not worth it. Im worried because she is a very sue-happy person! Before we started, she told me how many people she had sued and won, hence my concern she'll try anything to make a quick buck.
You say nothing was signed? Ever? I think the situation is a little more complicated than I'm assuming but, from the way I'm reading it, you aren't obliged to provide any help or otherwise. Your work is your own intellectual property, and as such is not hers until she forms a proper (written) contract with you, and thus pays for the right.
IT law is still vague as to the terms of ownership of web-based material, but imagine the situation involved buildings work. You (a builder) agree to build a garage on someone's property, but the contract is verbal. After 95% of the building work is completed (on the clients land) they refuse to pay you because they have run out of funds. You are not obliged to complete the work, as it would not be deemed that the contract is 'fair and reasonable'.
The verbal contract in this case favours neither party, but it does mean that she does not have grounds to sue you. I'm assuming you can show sufficient knowledge of the work to prove it is your own?!
>> Edited by fishtek69 on Wednesday 11th May 19:55
>> Edited by fishtek69 on Wednesday 11th May 20:20
IT law is still vague as to the terms of ownership of web-based material, but imagine the situation involved buildings work. You (a builder) agree to build a garage on someone's property, but the contract is verbal. After 95% of the building work is completed (on the clients land) they refuse to pay you because they have run out of funds. You are not obliged to complete the work, as it would not be deemed that the contract is 'fair and reasonable'.
The verbal contract in this case favours neither party, but it does mean that she does not have grounds to sue you. I'm assuming you can show sufficient knowledge of the work to prove it is your own?!
>> Edited by fishtek69 on Wednesday 11th May 19:55
>> Edited by fishtek69 on Wednesday 11th May 20:20
UKBob said:
Im worried because she is a very sue-happy person! Before we started, she told me how many people she had sued and won, hence my concern she'll try anything to make a quick buck.
Well, someone who brags about their legal conquests (other than actual lawyers) is someone to be careful of. It's tough that it was someone who was a friend of a friend who'd been a good client. You don't usually expect that from someone recommended to you through people you know.
Are you sure you don't have any duplicate information pertaining to her site? No saved files of code or anything? Old phone messages?
Maybe it would be easier to show that she couldn't have done the site herself and she can't produce receipts from hiring someone else to do it. Does the site have your name on it as to the creator? How does she plan to claim it on her taxes? Business expense? Gift? (from whom?) Because she has nothing that shows you "gave" it to her either, and gifts of a certain amount have to be claimed on your income tax, and must be provable by some documentation (at least in the US).
Anyway, my point is, maybe it can be shown that she is unable to prove that she paid for it, and unable to prove that it was really a gift from you. Good luck.
Uh... ditto what fishtek69 said.
>> Edited by seafarer on Wednesday 11th May 20:10
You're fine then, in terms of the risk of being sued yourself. She can't prove she did the work herself (because she didn't) and you you CAN prove you did it. The work is the proporty of you unless she can prove she paid you, or formed a written contract saying that she would pay you on full completion. She can't do that, so you've nothing to worry about. Of course, that doesn't stop her trying - she sounds like she has an American mentality for lawsuits!
On the flipside, there's not a great deal you can do to get payment off her, as the contract isn't cast-iron for either party. I'd write the thing off personally, and remember not to deal with her ever again.
It's an unfortunate situation that written contracts are needed in so many aspects of life these days, as the draw of financial reward or gain is placed above friendship and common courtesy.
On the flipside, there's not a great deal you can do to get payment off her, as the contract isn't cast-iron for either party. I'd write the thing off personally, and remember not to deal with her ever again.
It's an unfortunate situation that written contracts are needed in so many aspects of life these days, as the draw of financial reward or gain is placed above friendship and common courtesy.
I'd say that was intellectual theft. She's using your work but hasn't paid for it. How you prove it I don't know, but that's the case as I see it. It's no different from if she'd accepted a conservatory and failed to pay for it.
If she really can't afford to pay for it, she should stop using it.
If she really can't afford to pay for it, she should stop using it.
Hang on a sec. Just applying a bit of logic here, how can she sue you for not completing the job without confirming that you did the rest of the job? By doing that, she confirms that you have a verbal agreement, and it should be pretty easy to prove that she didn't pay. I'm guessing that you didn't bin the e-mails where she was starting to get ugly?
As I see it, she will either have to pay you to finish the job, or pay someone else to. She doesn't have many more options. No way will she get this through a court without admitting liability to the £4k.
As I see it, she will either have to pay you to finish the job, or pay someone else to. She doesn't have many more options. No way will she get this through a court without admitting liability to the £4k.
Write to her stating that unless you recieve full payment within 28 days (reasonable time) you will begin court proceedings.
In the letter ask for the name and address of her solicitors, if you do not know this already.
You have a valid contract with her, it is just a case of providing evidence of that. You should go and see a solicitor about this, get a free consultation and go from there.
If you need any advice, e-mail me through my profile.
In the letter ask for the name and address of her solicitors, if you do not know this already.
You have a valid contract with her, it is just a case of providing evidence of that. You should go and see a solicitor about this, get a free consultation and go from there.
If you need any advice, e-mail me through my profile.
seafarer said:
Are you sure you don't have any duplicate information pertaining to her site? No saved files of code or anything? Old phone messages?
We have all the files, so does she.
rude girl said:In theory, it was us who prevented the business from going live by refusing to work when she got abusive and refused to pay us money. The world works in strange ways, burglers sue house owners because their premises were unsafe, I dont want any blame because we refused to help her.
Hang on a sec. Just applying a bit of logic here, how can she sue you for not completing the job without confirming that you did the rest of the job? I'm guessing that you didn't bin the e-mails where she was starting to get ugly?
Cheers for your comments muncher
And everyone else's comments. Im feeling a little more relaxed now, not so guilty for not having helped her and more confident.Believe me, you're in a better position than she is!
It's just a shame that a structured, written contract wasn't used in this case, as they really do help to safeguard everyone's investment (money, time, work, etc).
In any case, I think Muncher is spot on. Give her 28 days to sort her act out and pay you something, and let her lawyers stew on the fact that she really has no ground to sue (or counter-sue) you successfully.
You're right in that the Law can side unfairly in this country, but I really can't see her being able to sue you. She can't prove she has any rights to your intellectual property because she can't prove she paid for it - and it would be seen as 'unreasonable' that you would give her the work as a gift. Even if you did, you do not owe her any duty of care or consideration to complete such work for her benefit. She would have insufficient grounds to assume she can base her living on a 'gift' from you; academic I know because it wasn't a gift anyway, but just shows that your bases are covered.
I hate people like her, as they try and use a shaky legal system to benefit themselves with no thought for others. She'll be less likely to do it if you sting her first - teach her a lesson!!!
Good luck with it all, let us know how it goes.
It's just a shame that a structured, written contract wasn't used in this case, as they really do help to safeguard everyone's investment (money, time, work, etc).
In any case, I think Muncher is spot on. Give her 28 days to sort her act out and pay you something, and let her lawyers stew on the fact that she really has no ground to sue (or counter-sue) you successfully.
You're right in that the Law can side unfairly in this country, but I really can't see her being able to sue you. She can't prove she has any rights to your intellectual property because she can't prove she paid for it - and it would be seen as 'unreasonable' that you would give her the work as a gift. Even if you did, you do not owe her any duty of care or consideration to complete such work for her benefit. She would have insufficient grounds to assume she can base her living on a 'gift' from you; academic I know because it wasn't a gift anyway, but just shows that your bases are covered.
I hate people like her, as they try and use a shaky legal system to benefit themselves with no thought for others. She'll be less likely to do it if you sting her first - teach her a lesson!!!
Good luck with it all, let us know how it goes.
Exactly. She couldn't pursue you as she hasn't invested sufficient time in the project to warrant a case for relevant loss of earnings. In your case, you have invested such time and expertise, and can prove as such.
Without the defined and set terms of a written contract, you would struggle to acquire financial compensation for the time you have put in (unless of course, she insists she needs to start using the work herself, in which case she's admitting needed the use of your service). However, the work remains the intellectual property of you, and so she has no rights to deny you access to your own work. In essence, you can 'repossess' that work and place it on your own servers (probably should have been on your server in the first place, but you didn't really know she was gonna be so awkward).
I remember we once studied a similar-ish case to this at law school. The claimant (a web-designer) had agreed a verbal contract with a man to build him a family-website. As the work was nearing completion, the claimant was told that his services were no longer needed, as another family member was building a site for him for free. The claimant successfully sued for the amount of hours a qualified web-designer would have needed to build the website to that standard and level, at the going rate. The court decided that, as the work was of no obvious value or use to the claimant, it would be unfair to simply say the work remained his intellectual property.
Without the defined and set terms of a written contract, you would struggle to acquire financial compensation for the time you have put in (unless of course, she insists she needs to start using the work herself, in which case she's admitting needed the use of your service). However, the work remains the intellectual property of you, and so she has no rights to deny you access to your own work. In essence, you can 'repossess' that work and place it on your own servers (probably should have been on your server in the first place, but you didn't really know she was gonna be so awkward).
I remember we once studied a similar-ish case to this at law school. The claimant (a web-designer) had agreed a verbal contract with a man to build him a family-website. As the work was nearing completion, the claimant was told that his services were no longer needed, as another family member was building a site for him for free. The claimant successfully sued for the amount of hours a qualified web-designer would have needed to build the website to that standard and level, at the going rate. The court decided that, as the work was of no obvious value or use to the claimant, it would be unfair to simply say the work remained his intellectual property.
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