Discussion
DocJock said:No denying that... but once again, the officials did us no favours at the break down during periods of the match when there was little to choose between the teams. What transpired after the All Blacks had eeked out an advantage was awesome... and depressing.
Face it, the Lions were lucky to come second, these All Blacks are awesome.
ps. It never ceases to amaze me how many forward passes the All Blacks get away with!
Watch Super12 or Tri-Nations and you will hardly ever see forward passes blown for, and the attacking team is always allowed to pile over the ball, off their feet making it very difficult to turn over a ruck.
You are never allowed to really scrummage either, and you will never, ever see a straight feed at a scrum.
The problem at breakdown is because of different interpretations, isn't it. That arises because the rules are so complicated and have far too many clauses which are open to interpretation rather than being black or white.
For example, it was much simpler when the rule was you hit the deck, you must release the ball immediately. None of this "allowed one movement" crap.
The other thing that hacks me off about "interpretation" down there is how long they allow for an advantage to go on for. I thought the rule was now one phase ?
You are never allowed to really scrummage either, and you will never, ever see a straight feed at a scrum.
The problem at breakdown is because of different interpretations, isn't it. That arises because the rules are so complicated and have far too many clauses which are open to interpretation rather than being black or white.
For example, it was much simpler when the rule was you hit the deck, you must release the ball immediately. None of this "allowed one movement" crap.
The other thing that hacks me off about "interpretation" down there is how long they allow for an advantage to go on for. I thought the rule was now one phase ?
Credit where credit is due, the Kiwis are awesome and the Lions just always a pace slower, a split second slower in their reactions etc....
BUT must agree about the SH refereeing, a huge amount was going on off the ball, blocking, late tackles, deliberate offside etc which Cole just refused to see even when blatant!!!
Time the IRB got a level playing field with professional players to the laws, and don't "adjust" the laws just because it's an international!!! I'm getting sick of the showmanship attitude of let it go if the telecasters don't pick it up!
FFS Stuart Barnes refused to go on a Laws course offered by the RFU, how ferking arrogant can you be!!!!
He may have played a couple of games for 3rd division Bath
but his knowledge of the laws is abysmal!!!
got my refs hat on here!
BUT must agree about the SH refereeing, a huge amount was going on off the ball, blocking, late tackles, deliberate offside etc which Cole just refused to see even when blatant!!!
Time the IRB got a level playing field with professional players to the laws, and don't "adjust" the laws just because it's an international!!! I'm getting sick of the showmanship attitude of let it go if the telecasters don't pick it up!
FFS Stuart Barnes refused to go on a Laws course offered by the RFU, how ferking arrogant can you be!!!!
He may have played a couple of games for 3rd division Bath
but his knowledge of the laws is abysmal!!! got my refs hat on here!
The Lions (It's not a british team) played poor becasuse that idiot Woodward tried to put out as many of his spent world cup winners as possible.
And then we thumped you in Twickenham on your first game after winning.
Foster3jd said:
All the above just goes to put into perspective how impressive England's World Cup victory in 2003 actually was
And then we thumped you in Twickenham on your first game after winning
. up-the-dubs said:OK, stand partially corrected... they are actually The British & Irish Lions... it says it on their tracksuits
The Lions (It's not a british team)
up-the-dubs said:Yes, you did thump an England team, but not the same team that dominated world rugby for the previous two years!!!
All the above just goes to put into perspective how impressive England's World Cup victory in 2003 actually was
Nice try (pardon the pun)
LOL.
No offence foster3jd, but if you think the 2003 vintage England team (at their peak) would have fared any better against this NZ team, you are sadly deluded.
The Blacks have basic skills far superior to ANY northern hemisphere teams, especially their backs who run hard, fast and straight.
No offence foster3jd, but if you think the 2003 vintage England team (at their peak) would have fared any better against this NZ team, you are sadly deluded.
The Blacks have basic skills far superior to ANY northern hemisphere teams, especially their backs who run hard, fast and straight.
DocJock said:
No offence foster3jd, but if you think the 2003 vintage England team (at their peak) would have fared any better against this NZ team, you are sadly deluded.
Sorry, but I don't think I actually said that, I was merely referring to the fact that they won the World Cup whilst playing in the southern hemisphere... but whilst were at it, that great and now disbanded England team did beat (without exception) every other major rugby playing country in the world during those two years, and often comprehensively.
The All Blacks may now be the best team in the world, but they haven't won the World Cup since it's inaugrual tournament in 1987 and need to perform at their peak for another two years to match England's achievements between 2001 and 2003.
>> Edited by foster3jd on Saturday 2nd July 17:53
Yep, great team. Please don't think I was being antagonistic.
It would have made a huge difference this tour if we had a Jonno and Dallaglio at the peak of their powers.
The game has moved on though. Leaving aside contentious areas such as interpretation of contact areas, NZ (and Aus to a lesser extent) have far superior back play to the northern teams (including the over-rated French).
They do everything at far higher speeds, with better skills and lines of running, and rarely fail to cross the gain line.
The only demerit IMHO is their use of dummy runners in what I see as an obstructive way, especially the Aussies.
Their first up tackling is better as well.
I really hope our players come home and raise their games as they did after the Aussie tour in '01.
To rehash your analogy re the world cup, this tour demonstrates what a fantastic coaching team McGeechan and Telfer were
>> Edited by DocJock on Saturday 2nd July 18:17
It would have made a huge difference this tour if we had a Jonno and Dallaglio at the peak of their powers.
The game has moved on though. Leaving aside contentious areas such as interpretation of contact areas, NZ (and Aus to a lesser extent) have far superior back play to the northern teams (including the over-rated French).
They do everything at far higher speeds, with better skills and lines of running, and rarely fail to cross the gain line.
The only demerit IMHO is their use of dummy runners in what I see as an obstructive way, especially the Aussies.
Their first up tackling is better as well.
I really hope our players come home and raise their games as they did after the Aussie tour in '01.
To rehash your analogy re the world cup, this tour demonstrates what a fantastic coaching team McGeechan and Telfer were
>> Edited by DocJock on Saturday 2nd July 18:17
Woodward and Robinson are great coaches too, but you can only get so much out of the players available in what is little more than a scratch team.
England 2001-2003 were a tight unit with not only great forward power and the best no.10 in the world, but also hard hitting pacey backs who unfortunately have since lost their zip.
The fact is, it's impossible to compare teams from different generations... Australia in 1999 were unstoppable!
England 2001-2003 were a tight unit with not only great forward power and the best no.10 in the world, but also hard hitting pacey backs who unfortunately have since lost their zip.
The fact is, it's impossible to compare teams from different generations... Australia in 1999 were unstoppable!
Robinson is not a "great" coach, he is adequate.
His record with Bath, and England post-Woodward demonstrates that.
Wilkinson was acclaimed the best no10 in the world by the British media. I think you would struggle to find agreement from fans 'down under', of Larkham, Mehrtens, Spencer.
Before you blow a gasket, I think he was peerless when it came to tackling, tactical kicking and place kicking. His distribution and support running were always in the shadow of the three above-mentioned attacking 10s.
I still wish he had a Scottish granny though !
Nubbin, is it not a case of him having strong views and not being afraid to voice them regarding Brian Ashton ?
He really should have more input if our back play is to catch up with NZ/Aus in terms of attacking.
IMO the southern teams always look like scoring when they move the ball, unlike our more pedestrian players.
>> Edited by DocJock on Saturday 2nd July 19:12
His record with Bath, and England post-Woodward demonstrates that.
Wilkinson was acclaimed the best no10 in the world by the British media. I think you would struggle to find agreement from fans 'down under', of Larkham, Mehrtens, Spencer.
Before you blow a gasket, I think he was peerless when it came to tackling, tactical kicking and place kicking. His distribution and support running were always in the shadow of the three above-mentioned attacking 10s.
I still wish he had a Scottish granny though !
Nubbin, is it not a case of him having strong views and not being afraid to voice them regarding Brian Ashton ?
He really should have more input if our back play is to catch up with NZ/Aus in terms of attacking.
IMO the southern teams always look like scoring when they move the ball, unlike our more pedestrian players.
>> Edited by DocJock on Saturday 2nd July 19:12
DocJock said:
The Blacks have basic skills far superior to ANY northern hemisphere teams, especially their backs who run hard, fast and straight.
Except for the French who, against even an on form Kiwi side, will make them look decidedly average. Good thing for the rest of the world is that they don't do it often
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