Intelligence services
Discussion
Ok, maybe the wrong time for this.
The Emergency services are doing an amazing job today, we should all be proud.
But of the intelligence services.. How on earth was this attack not known about?. There is no way that there was no sign. In the weeks to come we will here that someone somewhere had this info on their desks and didnt pursue it.
The Emergency services are doing an amazing job today, we should all be proud.
But of the intelligence services.. How on earth was this attack not known about?. There is no way that there was no sign. In the weeks to come we will here that someone somewhere had this info on their desks and didnt pursue it.
Theres half a million illigal immigrants in the Uk.
Theres tons and tons of drugs coming into the country, we get about 25%.
How difficult for a closed group to sneak in with explosives is it? The inteligence service do the best they can, thet cant be everywhere - especialy as these muslim extreemist groups are hard to penetrate.
Theres tons and tons of drugs coming into the country, we get about 25%.
How difficult for a closed group to sneak in with explosives is it? The inteligence service do the best they can, thet cant be everywhere - especialy as these muslim extreemist groups are hard to penetrate.
robdickinson said:
Theres half a million illigal immigrants in the Uk.
Theres tons and tons of drugs coming into the country, we get about 25%.
How difficult for a closed group to sneak in with explosives is it? The inteligence service do the best they can, thet cant be everywhere - especialy as these muslim extreemist groups are hard to penetrate.
Sorry, to plan an attck like this will leave loads of evidence. Someone always talks or emails or texts the wrong thing no matter how careful they think they are.
You can't know everything.
There is so much information in general that sorting what is significant and what is not is very difficult.
Even if there was an indication that something was likely to happen, it is not easy to pinpoint exactly what and where.
Real life is not like the films. The countdown doesn't usually get stopped at 00:01.
That said, once something has happened you can fill in blanks and follow a trail of evidence, and hopefully find out who was responsible.
There is so much information in general that sorting what is significant and what is not is very difficult.
Even if there was an indication that something was likely to happen, it is not easy to pinpoint exactly what and where.
Real life is not like the films. The countdown doesn't usually get stopped at 00:01.
That said, once something has happened you can fill in blanks and follow a trail of evidence, and hopefully find out who was responsible.
Even if they knew "Probable bomb attack in london this morning" where would they look? Should they evacuate the whole city? Is it a hoax? It's a rock/hard place situation. Close the city loose millions of pounds but nothing happens, and get slated by the press/public. Or let it happen be prepared and hope once it starts you can control it.
rich1231 said:
Ok, maybe the wrong time for this.
The Emergency services are doing an amazing job today, we should all be proud.
But of the intelligence services.. How on earth was this attack not known about?. There is no way that there was no sign. In the weeks to come we will here that someone somewhere had this info on their desks and didnt pursue it.
That sounds all to familiar.
rich1231 said:
Sorry, to plan an attck like this will leave loads of evidence. Someone always talks or emails or texts the wrong thing no matter how careful they think they are.
Sure you'll leave evidence, thers always a trail.
But picking that up before it happens is incredibly difficult, the terrorists are aware we scan emails, texts, voice calls etc, they'll either not use em or use codes/ecryption etc.
What it realy needs are people on the inside working for us , US has proved that technology doesnt replace people for things like this.
Yep, I suspect its probably easier to organise than an M4 protest, especially if you are avoiding the more obvious means of communication, where you might expect to find an audit trail.
Their jobs are hideously difficult, and will be likely to be extremely uncomfortable in the near future, once hindsight kicks in. Could we please leave the blame threads until they are more appropriate, please?
Their jobs are hideously difficult, and will be likely to be extremely uncomfortable in the near future, once hindsight kicks in. Could we please leave the blame threads until they are more appropriate, please?
The attacks have been on a relatively small scale - I suspect that is because the Security services have been doing a very good job, and essentially this was the best Al-Qaeda could manage.
Consider 9/11 - Arab pilots being trained in places scattered across USA, after assimilating themselves into normal American society, and then taking over a few of many internal flights to wreak havoc. It is not too difficult to disappear into a free society, and bide your time. Al-Qaeda works in cells, whose members are usually relatives or close friends, and so are extremely hard to penetrate - planning becomes a lot easier if you know you can trust everyone around you.
Consider 9/11 - Arab pilots being trained in places scattered across USA, after assimilating themselves into normal American society, and then taking over a few of many internal flights to wreak havoc. It is not too difficult to disappear into a free society, and bide your time. Al-Qaeda works in cells, whose members are usually relatives or close friends, and so are extremely hard to penetrate - planning becomes a lot easier if you know you can trust everyone around you.
rsvmilly said:
It is known as HUMINT - Human Intelligence; the man on the ground. As mentioned, there is no substitute for it.
Problem with AQ is that they are extremely difficult to infiltrate. They trust nobody.
We the UK do have a lot of HUMINT though, we have always maintained our networks where the US scaled back.
rich1231 said:
It is known as HUMINT - Human Intelligence; the man on the ground. As mentioned, there is no substitute for it.
Problem with AQ is that they are extremely difficult to infiltrate. They trust nobody.
We the UK do have a lot of HUMINT though, we have always maintained our networks where the US scaled back.
This was not meant to have happened on Charles's watch !!
The case for ID Cards has now got stronger I beleive thank you to the Tories and Lib Dems who opposed ID Cards has your position changed now !!!!
You cannot blame the intelligence services; the problem is the near impossibility of preventing these types of attacks due to a variety of factors.
For example the lack of effective immigration controls.
The fact that dangerous terrorists cannot be deported under human rights legislation.
And also that people who have links with extremists, are allowed to claim asylum.
The government can prattle on about ID cards all it wants, until the asylum system is decisively changed we will remain vulnerable.
For example the lack of effective immigration controls.
The fact that dangerous terrorists cannot be deported under human rights legislation.
And also that people who have links with extremists, are allowed to claim asylum.
The government can prattle on about ID cards all it wants, until the asylum system is decisively changed we will remain vulnerable.
mechsympathy said:
The case for ID Cards has now got stronger I beleive thank you to the Tories and Lib Dems who opposed ID Cards has your position changed now !!!!
ID cards didn't stop the Madrid bombings though...
Hear, hear. ID cards would have little effect on preventing this sort of thing. They've had them in Spain for decades, and still been plagued with ETA bombings and now Al Qaeda.
Remember, all the 'pilots' involved in 9-11 all had valid visas
That said, I'm sure that ID cards will be forced through on the back of this attack. 3years late and £5bn over budget no doubt...
john75 said:
The case for ID Cards has now got stronger I beleive thank you to the Tories and Lib Dems who opposed ID Cards has your position changed now !!!!
I am broadly in favour of ID cards (mainly to stop identity theft and benefit fraud) they will do nothing to stop atrocities such as these however.
rsvmilly said:
Problem with AQ is that they are extremely difficult to infiltrate. They trust nobody.
it's extremely hard to infultrate because, as an organisation, it's prcactically intangible. AQ consists of a random bunch of dissaffected muslims who had major issues with their own countries financed by Bin Laden, according to last years documentary (can't remember the name now)
apache said:
Problem with AQ is that they are extremely difficult to infiltrate. They trust nobody.
it's extremely hard to infultrate because, as an organisation, it's prcactically intangible. AQ consists of a random bunch of dissaffected muslims who had major issues with their own countries financed by Bin Laden, according to last years documentary (can't remember the name now)
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