Discussion
mcflurry said:
I’m not too fussed about ID cards. Except at having to stump up the cost.
It's just another stealth tax and a method of getting the company who is awarded the contract to "donate" another 2 million to the (champagne guzzling caviar munching) workers party!!!!??? Cynical, moi???
mcflurry said:
C C said:
I’m not too fussed about ID cards. Except at having to stump up the cost.
Same here. Barclaycard pay about 30p for a plastic card with some security stuff on it, how can the uk government charge the best part of £100????
I imagine a lot of the cost will be in registrations (fingerprints and retina's scanned).
Im against the cards on the grounds the government cannot come up with a convincing enough excuse to use them, so i can expect my details to be public domain in the commercial world, and we think the problem with cold-calling is bad now.
No doubt the pricing will be skewed so that working people pay the most, so, much like a tax really then.
>> Edited by scorp on Thursday 14th July 08:32
£100? Make that £300 according to LSE report.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1494944,00.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1494944,00.html
I hope the costs keep spiralling as I it's the only way there'll be a big enough surge of angry people to get rid of the idea. Sadly most people seem to support it because "they have nothing to hide" - well, neither do i pal but it's bloody pointless and i shouldn't need a bit of plastic so i can live in my country!
Cheers,
Rob.
Cheers,
Rob.
An article from silicon.com:
ID cards won't stop terrorists
As with the war on drugs, the government has apparently made little progress in stopping terrorist attacks thus far. The latest remedy, ID cards, will not change this state of affairs, says Martin Brampton.
The government still thinks that ID cards will stop terrorists. Perhaps on the application form, there will be a box to tick if you are a terrorist. The sad fact is that our world is full of violence and there is little likelihood of ending it unless we can think of an entirely new approach.
In the meantime, governments trot out remedies that have more to do with avoiding ridicule by the tabloids than with achieving any particular result. The Home Secretary concedes that ID cards would not stop actual incidents but argues that it would damage the financial and organisational networks behind terrorists.
This is, of course, wildly inconsistent with another theme that constantly runs through the reaction to the threat of violence. The bombers are characterised as madmen, beyond the bounds of ordinary humanity. Yet they are simultaneously believed to be capable of sophisticated financial and logistical organisation - and of creating schemes that could only be disrupted by subjecting us all to an eavesdropping, supervising and interfering society.
To see whether this kind of thing would be likely to succeed, we could turn away from terrorism and consider another, only slightly less emotive topic. Governments have become fond of waging wars of all kinds, despite the unhealthy echoes of Orwell's novel 1984. The war on drugs has been one of the most prominent for some years now.
If they expect to be believed, one might have thought members of the government would refer us to their successful track record in the war on drugs. But of course they cannot do so. The results have been risibly negligible as sections of the nation seemingly become ever more in the grip of drug taking.
Enormous publicity is given to seizures of drugs and their so-called street value is always proclaimed to the press. Naturally, this is about as meaningful as grabbing a sack of coffee beans at the docks and proclaiming what its 'street value' will be after it turned up on the supermarket shelf as a jar of instant coffee.
In fact, government concedes that seizures are only a small proportion of the flow of drugs, and as likely to stop drug taking as the tax on alcohol is likely to stop drinking. Indeed, the drinks industry would doubtless be delighted to hand over a percentage of its production in exchange for being relieved of tax, putting it on a more level footing with the drugs business.
Naturally, the fact that some drugs are lost to seizures is a factor in the calculations of drug dealers, as is the loss of personnel to lengthy prison sentences. None of these things stop the business, though, if anything they simply help to push up prices and profits.
Now drug dealers are merely in it for the money, and that produces enough violence and determined law evasion to ensure a continuing flow of drugs to those that want them. Government schemes have made it impossible for little old ladies to open bank accounts, because they have neither driving licences nor passports. But there is no evidence that law enforcement have impeded the flow of drug money.
And if the government cannot seriously impede people who are only in it for the money, how much less chance does it stand against those who believe themselves to be on a mission of the utmost importance? So important to some of them that they are perfectly willing to die for the cause?
It is clear enough that increasing interference with ordinary life can have a deleterious effect on the life of the generally law abiding citizen. There is scant evidence that ID cards or other controls on the individual will make a significant difference to our safety against the threat of bombs and such like.
ID cards won't stop terrorists
As with the war on drugs, the government has apparently made little progress in stopping terrorist attacks thus far. The latest remedy, ID cards, will not change this state of affairs, says Martin Brampton.
The government still thinks that ID cards will stop terrorists. Perhaps on the application form, there will be a box to tick if you are a terrorist. The sad fact is that our world is full of violence and there is little likelihood of ending it unless we can think of an entirely new approach.
In the meantime, governments trot out remedies that have more to do with avoiding ridicule by the tabloids than with achieving any particular result. The Home Secretary concedes that ID cards would not stop actual incidents but argues that it would damage the financial and organisational networks behind terrorists.
This is, of course, wildly inconsistent with another theme that constantly runs through the reaction to the threat of violence. The bombers are characterised as madmen, beyond the bounds of ordinary humanity. Yet they are simultaneously believed to be capable of sophisticated financial and logistical organisation - and of creating schemes that could only be disrupted by subjecting us all to an eavesdropping, supervising and interfering society.
To see whether this kind of thing would be likely to succeed, we could turn away from terrorism and consider another, only slightly less emotive topic. Governments have become fond of waging wars of all kinds, despite the unhealthy echoes of Orwell's novel 1984. The war on drugs has been one of the most prominent for some years now.
If they expect to be believed, one might have thought members of the government would refer us to their successful track record in the war on drugs. But of course they cannot do so. The results have been risibly negligible as sections of the nation seemingly become ever more in the grip of drug taking.
Enormous publicity is given to seizures of drugs and their so-called street value is always proclaimed to the press. Naturally, this is about as meaningful as grabbing a sack of coffee beans at the docks and proclaiming what its 'street value' will be after it turned up on the supermarket shelf as a jar of instant coffee.
In fact, government concedes that seizures are only a small proportion of the flow of drugs, and as likely to stop drug taking as the tax on alcohol is likely to stop drinking. Indeed, the drinks industry would doubtless be delighted to hand over a percentage of its production in exchange for being relieved of tax, putting it on a more level footing with the drugs business.
Naturally, the fact that some drugs are lost to seizures is a factor in the calculations of drug dealers, as is the loss of personnel to lengthy prison sentences. None of these things stop the business, though, if anything they simply help to push up prices and profits.
Now drug dealers are merely in it for the money, and that produces enough violence and determined law evasion to ensure a continuing flow of drugs to those that want them. Government schemes have made it impossible for little old ladies to open bank accounts, because they have neither driving licences nor passports. But there is no evidence that law enforcement have impeded the flow of drug money.
And if the government cannot seriously impede people who are only in it for the money, how much less chance does it stand against those who believe themselves to be on a mission of the utmost importance? So important to some of them that they are perfectly willing to die for the cause?
It is clear enough that increasing interference with ordinary life can have a deleterious effect on the life of the generally law abiding citizen. There is scant evidence that ID cards or other controls on the individual will make a significant difference to our safety against the threat of bombs and such like.
Whilst I'm nervous of the restriction on civil liberties, I am open to be convinced by a cost-benefit analysis (savings from better security, criminals caught faster, dodgy social security payments, etc.). However, the government don't seem willing to do that, so I remain very doubtful.
The other minor point is that it doesn't work. The limited research in the UK ahead of passing the law (and very little has been done) indicated that face recognition works fine if your white, not so good if your black. Some 30 research projects in the USA revealed almost all failed to work (and showed little chance of working). So the technology doesn't particularly work.
And given the government's wonderful record with IT projects, we all know the true cast will be a long way on the far side of £10bn.
All in, you can't tell me why we should do it, you can't promise me how you will do it (even whether you can do it), and you can't promise me how much it will cost. And you want me to support this?
The other minor point is that it doesn't work. The limited research in the UK ahead of passing the law (and very little has been done) indicated that face recognition works fine if your white, not so good if your black. Some 30 research projects in the USA revealed almost all failed to work (and showed little chance of working). So the technology doesn't particularly work.
And given the government's wonderful record with IT projects, we all know the true cast will be a long way on the far side of £10bn.
All in, you can't tell me why we should do it, you can't promise me how you will do it (even whether you can do it), and you can't promise me how much it will cost. And you want me to support this?
HiRich said:
Whilst I'm nervous of the restriction on civil liberties, I am open to be convinced by a cost-benefit analysis (savings from better security, criminals caught faster, dodgy social security payments, etc.). However, the government don't seem willing to do that, so I remain very doubtful.
Yes I would like to see a cost benefit analysis as well.
I will say that with the growing problem of identity theft-the case for ID cards which incorporate Biometric data grows stronger.
You'll never get a CBA because there is little benefit to you as an individual or even you as a greater part of society.
National ID Cards were last Wednesday and still are today completely unjustifiable.
We dont have them now and it didnt really take long to find out who did this did it?
National ID Cards were last Wednesday and still are today completely unjustifiable.
We dont have them now and it didnt really take long to find out who did this did it?
No problem with ID cards, but big problkem with what might be held thereon and abused by government.
I've lost all faith in government since Blair started screwing us.
Following from a list. I think the author might be among us. If so, my apologies, but I think it deserves an airing here.....
In the not too distant future.......
Scene: The Post Office. When: The not-too-distant future...]
Customer: Hello, I'd like to renew my car tax.
Post Office: Certainly sir. Would you like to speed things up by
using your new identity card?
Customer: Why yes, that would seem to be a jolly fine idea.
PO: Let me just rub it on my jumper and swipe it. Is this the tax on
the clapped-out Astra?
Customer: Yes.
PO: Bit of trouble with the MOT this year I see. Jesus that wasn't
cheap! Still, at least the speeding points come off your licence in
August - that's something to look forward to. [censored] hell, that
Magistrate really hammered you didn't he? Probably took exception to
that membership of the Young Communists back in your student days.
Six months or twelve?
Customer: I was only in the party for four months...
PO: Not according to this. Actually, I meant the car tax.
Customer: Oh right. Twelve.
PO: How would you like to pay?
Customer: Barclayard.
PO: No, you're up to your limit on that, what about the Capital One
Card?
Customer: I don't have one.
PO: Says here you do... oh hang on... no the bloke using that is in
Glasgow at the moment buying DVD players. He's run up quite a bill
for you there mate. Try the Switch card.
Customer: Here you go.
PO: No, something wrong here, won't let me complete the transaction.
Let's have a look... ah... yes... your TV licence has expired. Are
you going to pay that too?
Customer: Well, I thought I would leave it till next month.
PO: On your head be it. Do you want some Euros while we're at it? Two
weeks in Marbella, eh, you lucky devil. I see you're flying BA. Good
choice.
Customer: Er, yes I'll do that now. Give me 500 in mixed notes.
PO: It'll have to be 200 I'm afraid. The car tax has taken a bite out
of your funds and your monthly ID card purchase fee direct debit is
due out of the account tomorrow. Right, there you go. Have a nice day
sir.
[ Later ... Tesco checkout]
Customer: Hello, can you sell me a one-month travel insurance policy?
Tesco: Yes sir, let me have your ID card... Thanks. Do you have any
current health problems?
Customer: No, nothing.
Tesco: You sure, sir?
Customer: Yes, why?
Tesco: Well it says here you were at the doctor's last week.
Customer: Oh, that was nothing serious.
Tesco: Let me just... Oh yes, touch of the old Farmer Giles... No
that wont be a problem. Probably sitting on cheap charter flight
seats that's to blame. I see you're going British Airways this time
around, though. Very wise.
Oops, pressed the wrong button. [Picture of Customer's hideously
empiled bottom appears on every plasma screen in the shop,
accompanied by name, address, telephone number and email address].
Old lady in queue: Oooh they look sore dear. Have you tried Anusol?
Tesco: I see your car had a bit of a struggle with the MOT.
Garage not keen on Communists?
Customer: Can we just do the travel insurance, and these frozen peas?
Tesco: Peas? Shall I just check that don't have a genetic
predisposition to pea allergy? It'll only take a minute to scan your
genome... I understand. You're in a bit of a hurry. Very good sir.
Next please.
[Later again ... At the Bank]
Customer: Hello, I'd like to open a deposit account please.
Bank Clerk: Can I see your ID?
Customer: Do I have to?
BC: Yes. It will speed things up and prevent identity theft while
ensuring that only those entitled to state benefits receive them. And
it will prevent all forms of terrorism, everywhere, for ever.
Customer: Yes of course. Here you go...
BC: Right Sir, how may I help? Would you like a cushion?
Customer: Sorry?
BC: Oh, I just thought... the frozen peas helped then?
Customer: Can we just do the bank account?
BC: Of course sir. Right, you already have a current account with us
but your holiday funds pretty well put paid to that until payday.
Hmmm... Oh dear this Capital One Account is all over the place and
your Barclaycard is at the limit...
I've lost all faith in government since Blair started screwing us.
Following from a list. I think the author might be among us. If so, my apologies, but I think it deserves an airing here.....
In the not too distant future.......
Scene: The Post Office. When: The not-too-distant future...]
Customer: Hello, I'd like to renew my car tax.
Post Office: Certainly sir. Would you like to speed things up by
using your new identity card?
Customer: Why yes, that would seem to be a jolly fine idea.
PO: Let me just rub it on my jumper and swipe it. Is this the tax on
the clapped-out Astra?
Customer: Yes.
PO: Bit of trouble with the MOT this year I see. Jesus that wasn't
cheap! Still, at least the speeding points come off your licence in
August - that's something to look forward to. [censored] hell, that
Magistrate really hammered you didn't he? Probably took exception to
that membership of the Young Communists back in your student days.
Six months or twelve?
Customer: I was only in the party for four months...
PO: Not according to this. Actually, I meant the car tax.
Customer: Oh right. Twelve.
PO: How would you like to pay?
Customer: Barclayard.
PO: No, you're up to your limit on that, what about the Capital One
Card?
Customer: I don't have one.
PO: Says here you do... oh hang on... no the bloke using that is in
Glasgow at the moment buying DVD players. He's run up quite a bill
for you there mate. Try the Switch card.
Customer: Here you go.
PO: No, something wrong here, won't let me complete the transaction.
Let's have a look... ah... yes... your TV licence has expired. Are
you going to pay that too?
Customer: Well, I thought I would leave it till next month.
PO: On your head be it. Do you want some Euros while we're at it? Two
weeks in Marbella, eh, you lucky devil. I see you're flying BA. Good
choice.
Customer: Er, yes I'll do that now. Give me 500 in mixed notes.
PO: It'll have to be 200 I'm afraid. The car tax has taken a bite out
of your funds and your monthly ID card purchase fee direct debit is
due out of the account tomorrow. Right, there you go. Have a nice day
sir.
[ Later ... Tesco checkout]
Customer: Hello, can you sell me a one-month travel insurance policy?
Tesco: Yes sir, let me have your ID card... Thanks. Do you have any
current health problems?
Customer: No, nothing.
Tesco: You sure, sir?
Customer: Yes, why?
Tesco: Well it says here you were at the doctor's last week.
Customer: Oh, that was nothing serious.
Tesco: Let me just... Oh yes, touch of the old Farmer Giles... No
that wont be a problem. Probably sitting on cheap charter flight
seats that's to blame. I see you're going British Airways this time
around, though. Very wise.
Oops, pressed the wrong button. [Picture of Customer's hideously
empiled bottom appears on every plasma screen in the shop,
accompanied by name, address, telephone number and email address].
Old lady in queue: Oooh they look sore dear. Have you tried Anusol?
Tesco: I see your car had a bit of a struggle with the MOT.
Garage not keen on Communists?
Customer: Can we just do the travel insurance, and these frozen peas?
Tesco: Peas? Shall I just check that don't have a genetic
predisposition to pea allergy? It'll only take a minute to scan your
genome... I understand. You're in a bit of a hurry. Very good sir.
Next please.
[Later again ... At the Bank]
Customer: Hello, I'd like to open a deposit account please.
Bank Clerk: Can I see your ID?
Customer: Do I have to?
BC: Yes. It will speed things up and prevent identity theft while
ensuring that only those entitled to state benefits receive them. And
it will prevent all forms of terrorism, everywhere, for ever.
Customer: Yes of course. Here you go...
BC: Right Sir, how may I help? Would you like a cushion?
Customer: Sorry?
BC: Oh, I just thought... the frozen peas helped then?
Customer: Can we just do the bank account?
BC: Of course sir. Right, you already have a current account with us
but your holiday funds pretty well put paid to that until payday.
Hmmm... Oh dear this Capital One Account is all over the place and
your Barclaycard is at the limit...
JagLover said:
I will say that with the growing problem of identity theft-the case for ID cards which incorporate Biometric data grows stronger.
If anything, ID cards will make identity theft even easier. Clone one card and you have everything you need to take someone else's identity. And of course the implications of someone acting under your identity are dreadful to imagine - computer says it was you, and computer is never wrong.
Anyone thought that the very people such ID cards are meant to target, ie people in receipt of benefits, economic migrants, career criminals etc are the self same people who under Blairs proposals wont have to pay for the ID cards in the first instance.
However, your average working class man & woman, who dont partake of benefits or commit crime, will have to.
Stealth Tax by any other name & ineffective to boot. But its only £10 billion, so what the hell.
However, your average working class man & woman, who dont partake of benefits or commit crime, will have to.
Stealth Tax by any other name & ineffective to boot. But its only £10 billion, so what the hell.
Witchfinder said:
If anything, ID cards will make identity theft even easier. Clone one card and you have everything you need to take someone else's identity. And of course the implications of someone acting under your identity are dreadful to imagine - computer says it was you, and computer is never wrong.
I don't reaaly see that myself unless they can find a way of cloning your fingerprint or Iris.
Set up properly it should not be possible.
JagLover said:
If anything, ID cards will make identity theft even easier. Clone one card and you have everything you need to take someone else's identity. And of course the implications of someone acting under your identity are dreadful to imagine - computer says it was you, and computer is never wrong.
I don't reaaly see that myself unless they can find a way of cloning your fingerprint or Iris.
Set up properly it should not be possible.
Anything can be cracked and thus made to legitimise the felon.
The more difficult it appears, the more "honest" appears the felon. A snapshot of a report from Silicon.com:
Forgers will crack e-passports within a decade
"All we can do is keep changing," says head of UK Passport Service...
The head of the UK Passport Service (UKPS) claims the biometric technology behind new passports will have to be updated more than once every 10 years in order to keep one step ahead of the criminal gangs who mass produce forgeries.
in an interview with the Financial Times recently, Bernard Herdan, chief executive of the UKPS, said it is a constant battle to keep ahead of fraudsters, and that the new biometric e-passports will probably have to be changed more often than once every 10 years.
"I suspect history will repeat itself... by the back end of [a] 10-year period, my successor will be saying that passports are being mass produced in Bangkok," he told the paper. "All we can do is keep changing the design. We are going to change [the technology] more frequently than every 10 years. Our plan is to keep ahead of the forgers with a faster rate."
The lifespan of biometrics has been a bone of contention with the government's ID card plans. Academics and technical experts have claimed the card and the biometric data will need to be upgraded or replaced every five years, adding to the costs of the scheme. But the Home Office maintains the technology will be good for 10 years.
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