Help with employment law / mental health issues

[goatboy]

Sorry to ask but in the past I have seem people get technical help with the strangest requests and subject matter. The following concerns someone very close to me who over the last 3yrs has sytematically broken down mentally to the point where they are delusional paranoid and have created an incredibly complicated story by which they convince themselves that they are normal. The big prob is the individual refuses to see a doctor and get help for this (read further paranoia about the doctors having been got to)
I have a specific question about the persons employment . They have been off on the sick and refusing to see a doctor for the last 6months but the company has now given an ultimatum which is essentially see the doctor or be sacked.
During the last 6m the individual has entered into lots of communication with the company to argue the case as to why they should not have to see a doctor ( and admit having mental health issues) Now during the course of this 6 months a lie has been told by my friend and they feel that if they now admit to mental health problems and admit that they told said lie are they protected under the grounds that the lie they told was while mentally ill and therefore not a sackable offence. Sorry about the nature of this post and the length etc but trying to find out the answer to this question quickly and had no idea who else to ask. Essentially I want him to see this Doctor but at the same time don't want to be responsible for getting him sacked.
Many Thanks

[goatboy]

Thanks very much for this but the nature of the person is that a technical piece of legal jargon that could be researched would really help. Can you point me in the direction of any such subject matter

[glocko]

Hi Goatboy,
Your pal isn't putting himself in a very strong position with regards his employment.
What is his reluctance in seeking medical help with his problems? If he is denying that he has mental health problems and all the stigma that can go with that then he is making an informed choice.
If however you feel that his delusions are impacting on his ability to make an informed decision then a request can be made to his GP to instigate mental health assessments, this would probably only be done if he was seen as a danger to himself or others.
Does his employer have an occupational health department? Failure to work with Occy Health when off on long term sick can be seen as a misconduct issue and that's what leads me to say he is doing himself no favours.
His employers could request a 'capability' assessment which would look at his ability to carry out the role he is employed for.
Not too sure on how it stands if he works for a small employer but I think that fundamentally if he is making 'informed decisions' they would be in a strong position to sack him.
Hope this helps

[edc]

This may or may not fall under the DDA

There are a lot of 'starter' texts re the DDA, what is and what is not a disability, what an employers must do before he can release the employee etc

I can't remember the text but it is thin and white with red lettering and is basically a precis of all the major cases and covers each section of the DDA. That will clarify things a little for you and where you stand.

[glocko]

I don't think he would qualify under DDA, IIRC Disabled is defined under the Chronically Sick & Disabled persons Act 1970 or National Assistance Act 1948.
Basically with mental health they have to be assessed as having a 'severe and enduring mental illness', from the info that goatboy gave I would think he would fall more into Personality Disorder which is a different kettle of fish.
I don't think the DDA would protect him. Basically he needs to tap into health services to move on from this situation.

>> Edited by glocko on Wednesday 27th July 19:16

[edc]

Mental conditons are covered under the DDA

[edc]

Again have a quick read of emplaw.co.uk which I posted the other day. Tis is a quick, free, and well laid out resource for non-lawyers

[sparkythecat]

edc said:

Mental conditons are covered under the DDA

Yes but mental illness has to be diagnosed.
To get a diagnosis he has to see a doctor.

I think the employers have been more than reasonable up to now in allowing him to be absent from work for 6 months.

If he is as ill as goatboy claims, he'd be failing in his duty as a friend if he did not get him the medical help he appears to need.

I wonder what his family are doing for him?

[glocko]

edc said:

Mental conditons are covered under the DDA

I know EDC but it is unclear that Goats pal's problems are circumstantial or longstanding.
the website of MIND (mental health charity) has this guidance...
The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 makes it unlawful to discriminate against those with a disability when providing services and for most employers when providing employment. A person with a "disability" is defined in the Disability Discrimination Act as someone with a physical or mental impairment, which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his/her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. The definition includes any impairment resulting from or consisting of a mental illness, but only if the illness is "clinically well-recognised". Conditions regularly diagnosed by a doctor, such as depression and anxiety, are covered. (Less well-known conditions are included if they appear in the standard diagnostic reference books known as ICD-10 or DSM-IV.)

To obtain protection under the Disability Discrimination Act a person has to demonstrate that their impairment lasted for at least 12 months, is likely to last for at least that period, is likely to last for the rest of the person's life or is recurrent.

I think that any employment law specialist defending the employer.. if a case was brought under DDA would argue that
a)The person does not meet the definition of disabled
b)The person is making informed choices whether to engage in health services that could help him address his problems.

[edc]

Yes you are right but all I am trying to do is to direct poster to a resource which will explain how things stand at the moment and what needs to be done for the legislation to work in your favour. You can't do more than that on what detail is posted.

[glocko]

edc said:

Yes you are right but all I am trying to do is to direct poster to a resource which will explain how things stand at the moment and what needs to be done for the legislation to work in your favour. You can't do more than that on what detail is posted.

That's right EDC, I've used emplaw before with my work and it's a great resource.
what Goats mate has to realise that if he doesn't engage with health professionals he may have to accept the consequences of his actions.
Another thought though is, How is he claiming Stat Sick Pay? You need GP notes for that to be paid.
As a mate Goat, have a long chat with your pal, offer to accompany him to his doctor and help him move on, all too often untreated depressive mental health distress can go too far down the line to come back from.
Good luck anyway

[goatboy]

Guys thanks very much for this info. You have all hit on the whole issue here which is that the individual is very ill but is making the odd rational decision due to being very bright etc. The big prob is that the rational decisions ( I feel ) can't really be seen as rational because the thought process behind everything is they are out to get me and they will destroy me.
The whole argument that I am having with him at the moment is that it is better for him to go along with the medical process his firm are suggesting even if they say at the end he is mentally ill. His view is that the stigma of mental health will destroy his career path etc and it may be better to be sacked. This is obviously stupid because he is ill and will never get better or another job unless he sorts his head out.
Not that myself or his family want to see him sectioned at least treatment can be forced on him. It seems to me that unless someone is diagnosed as mentally ill by a doctor(which is difficult if you refuse to see a doc) that you and your family fall through the gap of help and care and exist in limbo..

Again thanks for the help with the website and I really appreciate you trying to help with the limited info I have given.

[havoc]

An avenue that may help is to get the guy to see a counsellor-type psychologist, OUTSIDE of the work environment. That way he could be convinced that it has nothing to do with work, and that he's only getting counselling, not being diagnosed as mentally ill.

I can sympathise with part of this (his career aspirations), as until I got my new job I could see myself starting to slide towards depression due to the current job, but was fighting on my own to stay out of it as I didn't want it on my medical record in case a future company asked to see records. I was lucky in that I found a job quite quickly and that kicked my mind back into "normal" operation...still working back up, but a lot more level-headed now.

Whether THAT was a rational decision I don't know, but it's irrelevant now...what is relevant is getting your mate some professional advice. "Counselling" is something lots of people do, most of them perfectly ordinary, just stressed or worried about something specific...maybe try and steer him in that direction...I don't think a reasonable employer would worry too much about an employee having done that in the past...might even show strength of character to have stood up and admitted his problems.

[Tuna]

goatboy said:

His view is that the stigma of mental health will destroy his career path etc and it may be better to be sacked.

Identifying a mental health problem does not automatically mean you get locked up in straight jacket, nor does it make it impossible to lead a normal life and hold down a good job. However, without help from a professional, he has no chance whatsoever of getting things under control.

Mental illness - from mild depression to full blown schizophrenia - is not a question of 'pulling yourself together'. Sometimes you have to accept that without external guidance, your brain will stay on a destructive course until something really bad happens. Acknowledging that you have a problem and that you need to do something about it is a huge step towards a proper solution.

[havoc]

Tuna said:

Mental illness - from mild depression to full blown schizophrenia - is not a question of 'pulling yourself together'. Sometimes you have to accept that without external guidance, your brain will stay on a destructive course until something really bad happens.

Without what you could call a "frame of reference" - a picture/concept of what "normal" is (and given you experience everything subjectively, that's very difficult to do on yourself), it can be difficult to recognise the issue...I was lucky in that I'd seen the same symptoms in someone else, so knew what I was looking at "in the mirror" so to speak

...and without recognising the issue...which your friend seems to be having difficulty doing, you can't accept you need help.

Goatboy...you are doing exactly the right thing as a friend, you just need to be careful and diplomatic in doing it...but you also need to be persistent.