On reflection, I think the terrorists are winning.
Discussion
This is not a thread about the merits of the police actions regarding that Brazilian chap who was shot in Stockwell as such; we've covered that. But a rehash of it is sort of necessary - bear with me...
Obviously the shooting of an innocent person has been the topic of discussion for the last few days and I have been surprised and saddened by some attitudes (I'm not just talking about PH, but real live discussions too). I am probably doing a lot of people a great disservice and may well have over generalised too far - but I feel that:
We have very little to go on here other than the eye witness reports that have been quoted in the newspapers and on TV...
If as some reports say - he was challenged by armed non-uniformed men who only said "Oi, you - come here!", then, given Stockwell's history of gun crime, running away would seem a very good idea at the time to someone who's quite understandably panicking at the prospect of being murdered. It would not be unreasonable of him to have chosen this option.
If the cops had uniformed officers with them and / or shouted out "stop we're police" then yes he made a serious mistake. He panicked for whatever other reason.
Irrespective of the police action here, I am saddened at the way so many people have been quick to blame the victim for responsibility for his own death. "He was stupid", "he shouldn't have run away", "he should have given himself up", "he shouldn't have run into the tube station"... are all comments from people who are most possibly right, though speaking with the authority and conviction of hindsight. These people don't seem able to empathise with an innocent man who, on the spur of a lethal moment, clearly panicked; and when you're terrified out of your mind at the very real prospect of being killed I doubt there are many who would think with such a clear and rational head.
When we are scared to the extent that he must have been, we do things which are irrational, we don't listen to our own good advice and better judgement, because we're too terrified to even think straight... and perhaps we should give Mr Menezes that benefit of the doubt, perhaps that is why he ran. Perhaps that is why he tried to escape down the tube. Certainly if he had the clarity of hindsight (that we now all enjoy) on that Friday morning, I doubt Mr Menezes would have run off to his death.
But (and here we head towards the nub, the point I'm getting to after a synopsis of what happened) who has empathised with Mr Menezes? From a lot of normal, decent people, I've got the impression that there is no sense of compassion in what are sometimes very aggressive assertions, from all sorts of nice middle class people. There is no Quantum of Solace. Yes, they say - 'it was tragic' - but any sympathy seems to me to be so heavily tinged with blame that, in my mind, it lacks conviction and credibility.
This makes me sad and leads me to the conclusion that the terrorists have gained a major victory - they have instilled terror in us. For all our bragging and grandstanding about how 'we Londoners can cope' - and how 'we'll never let them win' - the reality is that they have already won a decisive battle (though not the war). Right now we're so scared and paranoid that we are more willing to blame the victim of a police shooting for running away than actually accept that it might have been a perfectly understandable response from a terrified individual to being challenged by armed men. We are so scared that we (even Asians and Muslims) understand and endorse the need for police to stop and search people based entirely on their ethnic appearance. We are so affected that the basic rules on the state’s responsibility over the preservation of human life have gone out of the window - because the alternatives are just so much worse they don't even bear thinking about (specifically the fact that no matter how upsetting Mr Menezes' death is - it was most likely the only course of action open to the officers - and that running from the cops which isn't actually a crime in itself can now be seen as justification for a petentially lethal response). We as Londoners are so scared of another bomb that we are giving up many dearly held rights and liberties, and it is unfortunately the right thing to do.
I can only conclude that this killing was tragic, but the response is perhaps a telling sign of how deep the tragedy really is. I actually feel a sense of responsibility, perhaps because so many people are ultimately trying to tie responsibility down to Mr Menezes and him alone? Maybe I just think that we should feel responsible on behalf of society as a whole - for Mr Menezes was killed for us. He was killed to make our society safe, and it was a mistake - but a mistake which was made in our name by the very guardians we have appointed to protect us.
And, I realise that this may sound melodramatic, but I can see our way of life, our egalatarianism, our social responsibility and our tolerance slipping away. A major victory for terrorism, then.
What do you think?
Harry.
>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Wednesday 27th July 14:42
Obviously the shooting of an innocent person has been the topic of discussion for the last few days and I have been surprised and saddened by some attitudes (I'm not just talking about PH, but real live discussions too). I am probably doing a lot of people a great disservice and may well have over generalised too far - but I feel that:
We have very little to go on here other than the eye witness reports that have been quoted in the newspapers and on TV...
If as some reports say - he was challenged by armed non-uniformed men who only said "Oi, you - come here!", then, given Stockwell's history of gun crime, running away would seem a very good idea at the time to someone who's quite understandably panicking at the prospect of being murdered. It would not be unreasonable of him to have chosen this option.
If the cops had uniformed officers with them and / or shouted out "stop we're police" then yes he made a serious mistake. He panicked for whatever other reason.
Irrespective of the police action here, I am saddened at the way so many people have been quick to blame the victim for responsibility for his own death. "He was stupid", "he shouldn't have run away", "he should have given himself up", "he shouldn't have run into the tube station"... are all comments from people who are most possibly right, though speaking with the authority and conviction of hindsight. These people don't seem able to empathise with an innocent man who, on the spur of a lethal moment, clearly panicked; and when you're terrified out of your mind at the very real prospect of being killed I doubt there are many who would think with such a clear and rational head.
When we are scared to the extent that he must have been, we do things which are irrational, we don't listen to our own good advice and better judgement, because we're too terrified to even think straight... and perhaps we should give Mr Menezes that benefit of the doubt, perhaps that is why he ran. Perhaps that is why he tried to escape down the tube. Certainly if he had the clarity of hindsight (that we now all enjoy) on that Friday morning, I doubt Mr Menezes would have run off to his death.
But (and here we head towards the nub, the point I'm getting to after a synopsis of what happened) who has empathised with Mr Menezes? From a lot of normal, decent people, I've got the impression that there is no sense of compassion in what are sometimes very aggressive assertions, from all sorts of nice middle class people. There is no Quantum of Solace. Yes, they say - 'it was tragic' - but any sympathy seems to me to be so heavily tinged with blame that, in my mind, it lacks conviction and credibility.
This makes me sad and leads me to the conclusion that the terrorists have gained a major victory - they have instilled terror in us. For all our bragging and grandstanding about how 'we Londoners can cope' - and how 'we'll never let them win' - the reality is that they have already won a decisive battle (though not the war). Right now we're so scared and paranoid that we are more willing to blame the victim of a police shooting for running away than actually accept that it might have been a perfectly understandable response from a terrified individual to being challenged by armed men. We are so scared that we (even Asians and Muslims) understand and endorse the need for police to stop and search people based entirely on their ethnic appearance. We are so affected that the basic rules on the state’s responsibility over the preservation of human life have gone out of the window - because the alternatives are just so much worse they don't even bear thinking about (specifically the fact that no matter how upsetting Mr Menezes' death is - it was most likely the only course of action open to the officers - and that running from the cops which isn't actually a crime in itself can now be seen as justification for a petentially lethal response). We as Londoners are so scared of another bomb that we are giving up many dearly held rights and liberties, and it is unfortunately the right thing to do.
I can only conclude that this killing was tragic, but the response is perhaps a telling sign of how deep the tragedy really is. I actually feel a sense of responsibility, perhaps because so many people are ultimately trying to tie responsibility down to Mr Menezes and him alone? Maybe I just think that we should feel responsible on behalf of society as a whole - for Mr Menezes was killed for us. He was killed to make our society safe, and it was a mistake - but a mistake which was made in our name by the very guardians we have appointed to protect us.
And, I realise that this may sound melodramatic, but I can see our way of life, our egalatarianism, our social responsibility and our tolerance slipping away. A major victory for terrorism, then.
What do you think?
Harry.
>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Wednesday 27th July 14:42
A very thought provoking post there. Not very much to add to it but just wanted to say I do not blame mr menezes for his death, I also certainly do not blame the police. I blame the terrorists for forcing this tragedy apon us, which is unfortunately what they want.
Catch 22 really for the police out there. Shoot and the terrorists win, don't shoot and the terrorists win.
Catch 22 really for the police out there. Shoot and the terrorists win, don't shoot and the terrorists win.
Yep - torrorists are winning at the mo. Terrorism is all about perception. Are you suspicious of asians with rucksacks?
Stop it right now. We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
As a wise man once said -
'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself'
Stop it right now. We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
As a wise man once said -
'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself'
Brilliantly put and I agree completely.
There are elements of the way in which we (society in general and the PH massive) have reacted since 7/7/5 that have made me proud to be a part of both. On the other hand it has also brought out some of our less pleasant traits. We should as a society be very careful not to play into the hands of terrorists by, in reaction to their attrocities, eroding the very things that they are attempting to destroy. In this way we simply do their job for them.
In general, I feel we live in a caring, tolerant, liberal and civilised society, certainly compared to some and certainly compared to the way they would want ours to be. Our best course of action in response to their actions has to be to cling ever harder to those aspects of our society that they so wish to destroy. Liberty, tolerance and empathy should always be at the core of what we are about but particularly now.
>> Edited by rustybin on Wednesday 27th July 15:01
There are elements of the way in which we (society in general and the PH massive) have reacted since 7/7/5 that have made me proud to be a part of both. On the other hand it has also brought out some of our less pleasant traits. We should as a society be very careful not to play into the hands of terrorists by, in reaction to their attrocities, eroding the very things that they are attempting to destroy. In this way we simply do their job for them.
In general, I feel we live in a caring, tolerant, liberal and civilised society, certainly compared to some and certainly compared to the way they would want ours to be. Our best course of action in response to their actions has to be to cling ever harder to those aspects of our society that they so wish to destroy. Liberty, tolerance and empathy should always be at the core of what we are about but particularly now.
>> Edited by rustybin on Wednesday 27th July 15:01
planetdave said:
Yep - torrorists are winning at the mo. Terrorism is all about perception. Are you suspicious of asians with rucksacks?
Stop it right now. We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
As a wise man once said -
'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself'
I can't see that working in practice, fear is intrinsic to human nature after all.
We have two options as i see it, we either sort out their greivances through diplomacy, or we kill them all. The latter being unlikely.
planetdave said:I agree that I don't think it'll work - the reason being that I am not scared really because I believe that when it's your time, it's your time. The thing that I am fearful of, and the thing that is stopping business as usual, is my deep fear of anything happening to my wife.
We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
Hence terrorism, and more specifially terror, is now a part of my life.
planetdave said:
Yep - torrorists are winning at the mo. Terrorism is all about perception. Are you suspicious of asians with rucksacks?
Stop it right now. We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
As a wise man once said -
'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself'
And this is the reason for my post.
This morning, on my way into work wearing combats, T-shirt and carrying rucksack, I was eyed suspiciously and eventually asked by an aggressive chap (who was later highly apologetic) to open it. I could barely believe it (but this is because I don't really consider myself Asian, but British, and am genuinely surprised when people make my skin colour an issue).
This morning, for the first time ever, I felt like a second-class citizen in my own city; it wasn't that I was challenged - it was the fear in his face and the way in which he did it. I can't begin to even tell you how that felt. And it's not like I can blame the chap who challenged me, either.
Many feel that we haven't been forced to give up anything by the villains. Some of us are, in the days to come, unlikely to be so lucky. I lost my dignity this morning, in front of a whole carriage of embarrassed commuters.
planetdave said:
Yep - torrorists are winning at the mo. Terrorism is all about perception. Are you suspicious of asians with rucksacks?
Stop it right now. We win by making it business as usual and let our forces for law and order sort things out behind the scenes (trying not to cock up TOO much).
As a wise man once said -
'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself'
Well you can never really 'win' against terrorism, only survive.
The terrorists also screw up though, their most recent bombing attempt was a miserable failure, apart from a minor psychological damage. (just the Police over eagerness to shoot probably had a minor psycholical effect on the bombers, not sure if they are about to get a bullet in the head whever they happen to be).
While I see your point, I don't concur; the terrorists aren't winning; they aren't winning because if you look at the streets, trains, planes and all about you, life in Britain goes on pretty much exactly as before. Sure, people might be a bit more wary, but this is natural; as long as they don't let this have any great effect on their behaviour, the terrorists aren't winning. Have we had mass mobs causing trouble for Asian/Muslim communities throughout the country? No...we've had a few isolated idiots but that's to be expected from your BNP/NF one brain cell tw@s. While there will be a debate about the balance of civil liberties/human rights versus security, have there been any knee-jerk reactions which have or are set to greatly effect everyday life? No...the terrorists don't win. See the thread about holidays to Egypt/Sharm in the wake of the bombings? The vast majority (including myself) seemed to still be ready to go there...a terrorists victory? I think not.
As I said, I do see where you're coming from, but its going to take alot more before I'm really going to think they're winning.
As far as the case of the shooting goes, I'm withholding judgement; I feel we lack information about exactly how the victim was challenged, and if he was aware that they were police or not plus many other issues. But I still say that this tragic incident should not be chalked as one to the terrorists.
As I said, I do see where you're coming from, but its going to take alot more before I'm really going to think they're winning.
As far as the case of the shooting goes, I'm withholding judgement; I feel we lack information about exactly how the victim was challenged, and if he was aware that they were police or not plus many other issues. But I still say that this tragic incident should not be chalked as one to the terrorists.
A thought-provoking post indeed.
Terrorists use terror to achieve their ends and terrorism will indeed cause fear, terror and breed more hate.
However I disagree this does not constitute a victory in any way at all in that the presumed general aims of Islamic fundamentalists is a significant change of policy in the Middle East, a change in our society (the elimination of all those aspects they loathe) or the spread of their distorted form of Islam - none of these is in the pipeline and if some wer eit would not be calling their tune.
They may have won a partial victory in Spain last year when the Madrid bombings may have swung some voters against the incumbent government but so far here no victory. Further to this Blair has form on giving in to terrorists so maybe some sort of victory will be won by the terrorists.
Another potential victory was won by the Islamic fundamentalists in this country ages ago in that they have been able to exploit our tolerance and hospitality and gain a significant enough foothold in this country to mount a bombing campaign.
Terrorists use terror to achieve their ends and terrorism will indeed cause fear, terror and breed more hate.
However I disagree this does not constitute a victory in any way at all in that the presumed general aims of Islamic fundamentalists is a significant change of policy in the Middle East, a change in our society (the elimination of all those aspects they loathe) or the spread of their distorted form of Islam - none of these is in the pipeline and if some wer eit would not be calling their tune.
They may have won a partial victory in Spain last year when the Madrid bombings may have swung some voters against the incumbent government but so far here no victory. Further to this Blair has form on giving in to terrorists so maybe some sort of victory will be won by the terrorists.
Another potential victory was won by the Islamic fundamentalists in this country ages ago in that they have been able to exploit our tolerance and hospitality and gain a significant enough foothold in this country to mount a bombing campaign.
I think that at the present the people who want a strong response to terrorists, and who are decrying the 'liberal' approach Britain has taken to immigrants, religious practise and minorities are making the most noise.
In that climate, it seems to be inviting personal attacks to sympathise with the situation that suspected terrorists find themselves in. Various groups jump on anyone who talks in terms of empathy, civil rights or open dialogues. When the Alf Garnets of this world are shouting it's easiest to just keep quiet and hope they run out of steam.
In that climate, it seems to be inviting personal attacks to sympathise with the situation that suspected terrorists find themselves in. Various groups jump on anyone who talks in terms of empathy, civil rights or open dialogues. When the Alf Garnets of this world are shouting it's easiest to just keep quiet and hope they run out of steam.
Harry Flashman said:
These people don't seem able to empathise with an innocent man who, on the spur of a lethal moment, clearly panicked; and when you're terrified out of your mind at the very real prospect of being killed I doubt there are many who would think with such a clear and rational head.
Personally it's not that I don't sympathise with him, just that I utterly refuse to blame the police for the action they took. It's a travesty but whatever his motivation, the reason he's dead is because he ran towards the tube which was the worst thing he could possibly have done.
There is a well documented psychological reaction to major threatening events like this, and part of it is a hardening of attitudes to death and injury, even when it is "collateral damage". That effect has been amply illustrated on PH and in the country as a whole. It is probably a survival technique, or a herd instinct - if a wildebeest is taken by a lion, the rest breathe a sigh of relief and get on with, well, wildebeesting. There is a tacit acceptance that there will be casualties, and frankly, as long as it isn't you, the brain is prepared,indeed programmed to accept the losses around you.
It isn't callousness - it's an acceptance of life and death. The terorists would be winning if everyone was panicking and shouting "What are we going to do?" Their aim is to kill us, and to disrupt our way of life. Our aim should be to kill them...........................
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If your reaction to that last sentence was along the lines of "Yes, let's get them, string 'em up, bring back the death penalty" etc. then you are reacting normally.
It isn't callousness - it's an acceptance of life and death. The terorists would be winning if everyone was panicking and shouting "What are we going to do?" Their aim is to kill us, and to disrupt our way of life. Our aim should be to kill them...........................
.....................................................
.....................................................
.....................................................
If your reaction to that last sentence was along the lines of "Yes, let's get them, string 'em up, bring back the death penalty" etc. then you are reacting normally.
nubbin said:
...
I must of missed this episode on "the war on terror", but when did the terrorists state that their sole objective is simply to kill us ?
I don't understand why someone would be willing to kill themselves, to kill me, for apparently no reason other than they 'wanted to' which you seem to imply.
don't take that the wrong way btw, im just puzzled about the motives given to us by our leaders.
Thank you for such a good post. I have also been shocked and saddened by people's attitudes both on and off PH and it's good to see someone actually think about what they're posting instead of typing the first inane, ill-informed comment that comes into their head and hitting Submit.
Harry Flashman said:
And this is the reason for my post.
This morning, on my way into work wearing combats, T-shirt and carrying rucksack, I was eyed suspiciously and eventually asked by an aggressive chap (who was later highly apologetic) to open it. I could barely believe it (but this is because I don't really consider myself Asian, but British, and am genuinely surprised when people make my skin colour an issue).
This morning, for the first time ever, I felt like a second-class citizen in my own city; it wasn't that I was challenged - it was the fear in his face and the way in which he did it. I can't begin to even tell you how that felt. And it's not like I can blame the chap who challenged me, either.
Many feel that we haven't been forced to give up anything by the villains. Some of us are, in the days to come, unlikely to be so lucky. I lost my dignity this morning, in front of a whole carriage of embarrassed commuters.
That is outrageous. Unfortunately it is idiots like this who will be manipulated by people with an agenda to push. The knuckle-draggers will use events such as those recently to try and justify their own bigotted views, and I fear that they may make some ground.
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