PC Mark Milton defence letter in Top Gear
Discussion
[quote=Serving Police officer in Road Traffic Department ina letter to Top Gear]...Does Mr carter think that the police drive their own cars around whilst off duty in this fashion? Furthermore, PC Milton is a highly trained professional driver who is expected to drive at high speeds whilst serving the public...not just for his own amusement.
Each vehicle has its own driving and handling characteristics and it's necessary to understand how each vehicle differs when using it, especially when responding to 999 calls on a daily basis. Unfortunately, this sometimes involves an officer exceeding the speed limit.
It is easy to argue that police officers should drive their vehicles on a race track, but these surfaces and environments are considerably different to the roads on which we have to travel whilst working.
If Mr Carter doesn't want the police to exceed the speed limit (for which there is exemption in the law), will he be happy for us to attend his car being stolen, house being burgled, or wife and children being attacked, at a sedate 30mph - and then run the risk of being injured and killed in the line of duty? How does that sound for a 'perk of the job'?[/quote]
Thoughts?
Each vehicle has its own driving and handling characteristics and it's necessary to understand how each vehicle differs when using it, especially when responding to 999 calls on a daily basis. Unfortunately, this sometimes involves an officer exceeding the speed limit.
It is easy to argue that police officers should drive their vehicles on a race track, but these surfaces and environments are considerably different to the roads on which we have to travel whilst working.
If Mr Carter doesn't want the police to exceed the speed limit (for which there is exemption in the law), will he be happy for us to attend his car being stolen, house being burgled, or wife and children being attacked, at a sedate 30mph - and then run the risk of being injured and killed in the line of duty? How does that sound for a 'perk of the job'?[/quote]
Thoughts?
Have the Police never heard of something called Milbrook......?
Guess not.... monkeys....
I am a well trained and experienced driver. I average between 20,000 and 25,000 miles per year (mainly on business) in a mixture of cars up and down the country. But when I get a new car I like to learn and understand its characteristics, and its performance. So, does that mean I can drive up and down our motorways at its maximum speed? What about 10MPH over the speed limit, just in case? No you say? Well, I have training upto and including police level as well race car ARDS level..... am I qualified to drive quickly? Or does a serving police driver exceed these levels.....?
As far as I am concerned (as you can probably tell by my ironic comments above), I think that pratt deserved to have the book thrown at him. On a call yes, on a personal blast up and down our motorways and A roads - NO... especially if anyone else might be around....
Guess not.... monkeys....
I am a well trained and experienced driver. I average between 20,000 and 25,000 miles per year (mainly on business) in a mixture of cars up and down the country. But when I get a new car I like to learn and understand its characteristics, and its performance. So, does that mean I can drive up and down our motorways at its maximum speed? What about 10MPH over the speed limit, just in case? No you say? Well, I have training upto and including police level as well race car ARDS level..... am I qualified to drive quickly? Or does a serving police driver exceed these levels.....?
As far as I am concerned (as you can probably tell by my ironic comments above), I think that pratt deserved to have the book thrown at him. On a call yes, on a personal blast up and down our motorways and A roads - NO... especially if anyone else might be around....
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
His advocate persuaded the Judge that he was covered by the exemption that the RTA allows.
Do we really want police drivers responding at speed in a car they are not familiar with?
His advocate persuaded the Judge that he was covered by the exemption that the RTA allows.
Do we really want police drivers responding at speed in a car they are not familiar with?
volvos70t5 said:
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
His advocate persuaded the Judge that he was covered by the exemption that the RTA allows.
Do we really want police drivers responding at speed in a car they are not familiar with?
Using that logic, should 'Firearms Officers' be allowed to take potshots in a busy street/tube train, etc. ?
lunarscope said:
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
His advocate persuaded the Judge that he was covered by the exemption that the RTA allows.
Do we really want police drivers responding at speed in a car they are not familiar with?
Using that logic, should 'Firearms Officers' be allowed to take potshots in a busy street/tube train, etc. ?
Is there an exemption in an Act of Parliament that permits this? If so, yes. If not, no. Simple.
volvos70t5 said:
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
Bollox, you could quite easily set up a pursuit scenario at Millbrook. Which would be a safer environment (for the public on the public highways) for the police to train in.
racefan_uk said:
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
Bollox, you could quite easily set up a pursuit scenario at Millbrook. Which would be a safer environment (for the public on the public highways) for the police to train in.
Does Milbrook have the facilities to simulate pursuing a stolen vehicle through council estates? A TPAC roadblock on a 3 lane motorway? Use of a stinger to effect a stop.
Why do you think that learners are taught to drive on public roads? Using your argument shouldn't they be made to train at race tracks?
Time after time here on PH we hear of the injustice of the CJS regarding speeding. We bleat on about how 85 in a 70 wasn't necessarily unsafe.
The Milton case set an important precedent: speed in itself is not necessarily dangerous but it depends on the conditions.
A Police Driving instructor would not state that, having viewed the video, that 86 in a 30 or 159 in a 70 was dangerous.
I believe we have yet to see the real benefit to this case and that is a proper review of police driver training in the UK.
We recently had a multiple car accident on the M61 near Chorley which closed the Northbound carriageway for several hours. The cause of said accident. A police training session in how to block speeding motorists! FFS They used a major motorway full of normal motorists to practice one of the most dangerous tasks in police driving. I live near Lancashire Police HQ and regularly see convoys of drivers training on the open road. They block traffic lights, ride 2 abreast and exceed the speed limit as they see fit. At a particular notorious set of lights which have a bad accident record and red light cameras, they were practicing blocking tactics at a round 10am in the morning. Unmarked police cars except for small 'police driver under training' oin the boot lids. I appreciate they need to learn how to do these things but the public road at 10am is not the place or time.
On the point of attending incidents at normal speed, How many times do the police actually come out to car theft or burgulary in recent years? In Lancashire this now doesn't happen to my knowledge.
On the point of attending incidents at normal speed, How many times do the police actually come out to car theft or burgulary in recent years? In Lancashire this now doesn't happen to my knowledge.
volvos70t5 said:
Police drivers need experience of driving to the conditions while pursuing. They are hardly likely to get such experience at Millbrook, are they?
His advocate persuaded the Judge that he was covered by the exemption that the RTA allows.
Do we really want police drivers responding at speed in a car they are not familiar with?
I completely understand where you are coming from and yes, I do want a trained and experienced policeforce - especially in these current times!
But there are two ways to look at this. One that it was "training" and no one was harmed. The other way is to say that this driver actually did manage to speed (by definition rather than breaking the law) and no one was harmed - was there a crime?
While motorists get caught for doing 79MPH on the motorway at 3:00AM in the morning, yet it is totally acceptible for a policeman to do 150MPH..... with immunity.... you can see that there is a problem here. One that further puts a divide between the policing OF the roads and the police ON the roads.....
You cannot deny that this doesnt look good to the public as a whole? Can you?
z4monster said:
We recently had a multiple car accident on the M61 near Chorley which closed the Northbound carriageway for several hours. The cause of said accident. A police training session in how to block speeding motorists! FFS They used a major motorway full of normal motorists to practice one of the most dangerous tasks in police driving. I live near Lancashire Police HQ and regularly see convoys of drivers training on the open road. They block traffic lights, ride 2 abreast and exceed the speed limit as they see fit. At a particular notorious set of lights which have a bad accident record and red light cameras, they were practicing blocking tactics at a round 10am in the morning. Unmarked police cars except for small 'police driver under training' oin the boot lids. I appreciate they need to learn how to do these things but the public road at 10am is not the place or time.
On the point of attending incidents at normal speed, How many times do the police actually come out to car theft or burgulary in recent years? In Lancashire this now doesn't happen to my knowledge.
Do you think that cars are only pursued during certain hours? Perhaps that car criminals only steal cars when traffic is light so as to help the police contain them easier.
Real life driving requires real life experience. It really is as simple as that.
Not when it puts the public at unacceptable risk.
And since when would anyone think it was necessary to train for an 80mph pursuit in a 30mph limit.
The guy was obviously taking the piss and is hiding behind his 'duty'.
Surely standing orders require the pursuit to be called-off if there is a danger to the public.
The pursued can be ambushed further up the road or tailed safely by helicopter.
And since when would anyone think it was necessary to train for an 80mph pursuit in a 30mph limit.
The guy was obviously taking the piss and is hiding behind his 'duty'.
Surely standing orders require the pursuit to be called-off if there is a danger to the public.
The pursued can be ambushed further up the road or tailed safely by helicopter.
off_again said:
While motorists get caught for doing 79MPH on the motorway at 3:00AM in the morning, yet it is totally acceptible for a policeman to do 150MPH..... with immunity.... you can see that there is a problem here. One that further puts a divide between the policing OF the roads and the police ON the roads.....
You cannot deny that this doesnt look good to the public as a whole? Can you?
Doesn't look good? It's worse than that. It is bloody awful. But we don't have any lawful exmeptions from speeding whereas vehicles being used for police purposes do.
Last week an advanced driving magazine dropped through my front door. In it was a guy suggesting (in all seriousness) that police should respond at the speed limit in all circumstances. Emergency Vehicles responding are a risk we simply have to accept if we want an urgent response.
Of course, we should minimise collisions in whatever way we can (better driver training, public information films, etc..) but I want well trained emergency services that can get to incidents safely and as quickly and as safely as possible.
if this police officer was engaged in a 'training exercise', why was it brought for prosecution? did his superiors know about it? did he have instructors with him/following him? did the officers who nicked him know what he was up to? had he requested additional training/experience in this new car? if not, that argument isn't valid
if that speed is safe for him, then it can also be safe for some of us and surely isn't by definition 'dangerous driving' purely because of the speed as it has been in other cases where people have gone to jail for the same thing
if that speed is safe for him, then it can also be safe for some of us and surely isn't by definition 'dangerous driving' purely because of the speed as it has been in other cases where people have gone to jail for the same thing
lunarscope said:
Not when it puts the public at unacceptable risk.
And since when would anyone think it was necessary to train for an 80mph pursuit in a 30mph limit.
The guy was obviously taking the piss and is hiding behind his 'duty'.
Surely standing orders require the pursuit to be called-off if there is a danger to the public.
The pursued can be ambushed further up the road or tailed safely by helicopter.
The guy was partaking in unofficial training. I believe that police control weren't aware of his actions at the time. Therefore, there was no one other than Milton who could have called a halt to his little run.
I do think you take a very simplistic view of the situation, if I may say so. How many forces have immediate access to a helicopter? Many forces have very very few traffic cars out on general patrol. It may take some quite considerable time to pull in other traffic cars to a central point to then facilitate a safe stop. What type of crime would such resources justify? A stolen car? A bank robber? A failed suicide bomber?
To be honest, it is virtually impossible to cater for all potential scenarios when it comes to such things.
edited to fix dodgy wording
>> Edited by volvos70t5 on Thursday 4th August 12:50
hugoagogo said:
if this police officer was engaged in a 'training exercise', why was it brought for prosecution? did his superiors know about it? did he have instructors with him/following him? did the officers who nicked him know what he was up to? had he requested additional training/experience in this new car? if not, that argument isn't valid
if that speed is safe for him, then it can also be safe for some of us and surely isn't by definition 'dangerous driving' purely because of the speed as it has been in other cases where people have gone to jail for the same thing
It sounds like a case of "perverting the course of justice" by the driver and the senior officers who have 'backed him up'.
hugoagogo said:
if this police officer was engaged in a 'training exercise', why was it brought for prosecution? did his superiors know about it? did he have instructors with him/following him? did the officers who nicked him know what he was up to? had he requested additional training/experience in this new car? if not, that argument isn't valid
if that speed is safe for him, then it can also be safe for some of us and surely isn't by definition 'dangerous driving' purely because of the speed as it has been in other cases where people have gone to jail for the same thing
As far as I am aware, it was an unoffical training run. At least, that is what he claimed.
Someone got hold of the video and the CPS got involved and next minute he is in court.
volvos70t5 said:
Last week an advanced driving magazine dropped through my front door. In it was a guy suggesting (in all seriousness) that police should respond at the speed limit in all circumstances. Emergency Vehicles responding are a risk we simply have to accept if we want an urgent response.
Unfortunately cases like this fall into the hands of anti-speed brigade. While the message "speed kills" is still continually pushed, naturally all traffic, be it emergency or not, will be the target. Its a shame really. Fortunately I have not had to use the Fire brigade or Police in any emergency, I have had to use the Ambulance service (as posted on a previous thread). My wife's health and life was under threat and hence I NEEDED the ambulance to speed down the A11 at 115MPH - am I am pleased it did.....
What we need to do is have a reasonable approach to speed and danger on the roads. The Police / Government / Quangos need to drop the "speed kills" mantra. It doesnt, and in many cases we NEED to....
On a separate issue, the Vectra he used was brand new and just delivered (from the news items I read at the time) with limited mileage. I am sure he didnt "rag the arse off it", but I have to suggest that max'ing out a brand new motor at more than the manufacturers max speed (a 3.2 GSi Vectra has a max speed of 150) is pretty dim. Now I am sure that no one has done this, and of course I havent... cough cough, but a 3.2 Vectra is quick, but an M5 it isnt. The time required to get to about 120 will be pretty good. But from 120 to 140 will be quite slow as aerodynamics start to come into play. Then from 140 to the max of 150 will have taken miles. The final extra 9 MPH would have taken even longer..... quite how long did this bloke have his foot flat to the floor? How many miles did he have to cover? And did he over-rev it? Technically you cant of course, but surely this is breaking the warranty from Vauxhall? Bit daft if you ask me..... and did he actually have to see how fast it would go? Was it a bit of bravado or is there a need to see EXACTLY how fast he can go in it...?
volvos70t5 said:
speed in itself is not necessarily dangerous
Its the stopping suddenly that causes the problem, as Clarkson said the other night
He shouldnt have been speeding, if he was testing the car then he should have had external observers or perhaps his lights on so other people are aware of him
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