Vietnam war – thoughts and memories
Discussion
Just been reading up on some websites for details about this conflict – again. I just can’t get enough info. For some inexplicable reason it fascinates me more than any other modern conflict apart from the two world wars. This is strange really since it happened before I was born and the country I grew up in didn’t, directly, have anything to do with it.
Maybe it’s the way it’s been immortalised by Hollywood (Apocalypse Now is one of my all time favourite films – in a sobering way). Maybe it’s trying to understand how the world’s biggest military was humbled by a nation with a fraction of the resources but the commitment to save their homeland. Or is it because the youth that were involved were part of a culture that set the scene culturally (in the west) for the rest of the 20th century. Or maybe the fact that there were many new military technologies being tested at the time.
Or is it just morbid curiosity?
In any case, Korea, Suez, Falklands, Gulf I & II etc just don’t hold the fascination from a military history perspective that Vietnam does. I wonder what it is?
So my question to PH’ers that remember it is: what was it like as an observer at the time?
Was it on the news every day like Iraq is now?
Was there a feeling that this was the important issue of the day or did people just get fatigued of it and it started slipping down the headlines?
Maybe it’s the way it’s been immortalised by Hollywood (Apocalypse Now is one of my all time favourite films – in a sobering way). Maybe it’s trying to understand how the world’s biggest military was humbled by a nation with a fraction of the resources but the commitment to save their homeland. Or is it because the youth that were involved were part of a culture that set the scene culturally (in the west) for the rest of the 20th century. Or maybe the fact that there were many new military technologies being tested at the time.
Or is it just morbid curiosity?
In any case, Korea, Suez, Falklands, Gulf I & II etc just don’t hold the fascination from a military history perspective that Vietnam does. I wonder what it is?
So my question to PH’ers that remember it is: what was it like as an observer at the time?
Was it on the news every day like Iraq is now?
Was there a feeling that this was the important issue of the day or did people just get fatigued of it and it started slipping down the headlines?
Maybe because it was the first majot televised war? It became the first real glimpse into war that people had, and so it stayed in the forefront of peoples minds. I would personally love to see a film about the falklands. Gose green, and Sharkey in his Harrier would be absolutely fantastic, but no British film company would be bothered to make it!
Edited for Nickname cock up!
>> Edited by andy mac on Monday 8th August 23:48
Edited for Nickname cock up!
>> Edited by andy mac on Monday 8th August 23:48
My father was in Vietnam attached to the 7th SOS (Special Operations Squadron) USAF.
He still won't talk about it much except for the odd story about one or two of his mates. Every once in a while he will drag out the 8mm movies he used to make. He still has the audio tapes that my sister and I used to make for him while we were living in Scotland with my mother and Grandparents while he was over there...
ErnestM
He still won't talk about it much except for the odd story about one or two of his mates. Every once in a while he will drag out the 8mm movies he used to make. He still has the audio tapes that my sister and I used to make for him while we were living in Scotland with my mother and Grandparents while he was over there...
ErnestM
Because it went on for over ten years, by 1972/73 most of us on this side of the Atlantic were rather numbed to the news coming out of Vietnam every night. There was a Vietnam item on virtually every news broadcast every night for a decade!
However, by that time I was old enough (14/15 years of age) to undrstand the politics and strategies of what was going on so began to take a personal interest in the details - particularly the air war as I was (and still am) a 'plane nut.
My best friend at the time (and me too) were keen kit builders so he started building kits of aircraft partcipating in the war which brought into focus various aspects of the way the USAF and US Navy prosecuted air warfare in South East Asia. I remember him building a Huey chopper, a Sikorksy Skycrane, a Sikorsky Jolly Green Giant, a couple of Douglas Skyraiders, an F-111 and various others. I myself built a Skyraider and an F-101 Voodoo.
Culturally, the war had a profound effect on my generation. Although too young to be a protest student, the coverage of the various protests (there were even anti-Vietnam War protests in Dublin) helped spawn the cynical atitude that virtually everyone seems to have about all politicians these days.
Despite the propaganda coming out of official US government circles. most people knew that it was an unwinnable war and that it would end in tears and humiliation for the US. When these circumstances came to pass, the effect it had on the US psyche was profound - and we still feel the effects of that today.
I have grave misgivings about the current Iraq adventure and fully expect that the outcome of this will be of a similar nature to the Vietnam debacle.
However, by that time I was old enough (14/15 years of age) to undrstand the politics and strategies of what was going on so began to take a personal interest in the details - particularly the air war as I was (and still am) a 'plane nut.
My best friend at the time (and me too) were keen kit builders so he started building kits of aircraft partcipating in the war which brought into focus various aspects of the way the USAF and US Navy prosecuted air warfare in South East Asia. I remember him building a Huey chopper, a Sikorksy Skycrane, a Sikorsky Jolly Green Giant, a couple of Douglas Skyraiders, an F-111 and various others. I myself built a Skyraider and an F-101 Voodoo.
Culturally, the war had a profound effect on my generation. Although too young to be a protest student, the coverage of the various protests (there were even anti-Vietnam War protests in Dublin) helped spawn the cynical atitude that virtually everyone seems to have about all politicians these days.
Despite the propaganda coming out of official US government circles. most people knew that it was an unwinnable war and that it would end in tears and humiliation for the US. When these circumstances came to pass, the effect it had on the US psyche was profound - and we still feel the effects of that today.
I have grave misgivings about the current Iraq adventure and fully expect that the outcome of this will be of a similar nature to the Vietnam debacle.
I've been to the Imperial War museum in Hanoi and it is very interesting to see things from another perspective. There were letters of support to the Vietnamese from many countries along with offers of blood for their wounded.
The losses of human life were staggering. 58,000 Americans and somewhere in the region of half a million Vietnamese.
It became a very unpopular war, both at home and overseas but the distain that veterans were shown on their return to the US was appaling.
The losses of human life were staggering. 58,000 Americans and somewhere in the region of half a million Vietnamese.
It became a very unpopular war, both at home and overseas but the distain that veterans were shown on their return to the US was appaling.
From the perspective of today, the poor reception many returning Vietnam combatants received in the US does seem bad. However, you have to place yourself in the context of the times.
In the US, over half the population bitterly opposed the war with a much higher percentage of that opposition coming from the under 25 population. That age group felt hugely resentful that it was their generation that was being selected to fight a war that they fundamentally didn't support. Also, because of the draft regulations, a large percentage of those being called up were from the socially disadvantaged segments of American society. Not only did this upset those communities, it also affected those who were excused the draft, i.e. middle class, white male, students many of whom were fundamentally upset by the basic unfairness of the draft selection rules.
I would expect that the main reason why the atitude in the US to Vietnam compared to Iraq arises is due to the fact that most of the soldiers fighting in Vietnam were draftees whereas all of the soldiers fighting in Iraq are professional career soldiers. Consequently, that hard core of resentment that existed in the Vietnam era is not there today.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 9th August 08:36
In the US, over half the population bitterly opposed the war with a much higher percentage of that opposition coming from the under 25 population. That age group felt hugely resentful that it was their generation that was being selected to fight a war that they fundamentally didn't support. Also, because of the draft regulations, a large percentage of those being called up were from the socially disadvantaged segments of American society. Not only did this upset those communities, it also affected those who were excused the draft, i.e. middle class, white male, students many of whom were fundamentally upset by the basic unfairness of the draft selection rules.
I would expect that the main reason why the atitude in the US to Vietnam compared to Iraq arises is due to the fact that most of the soldiers fighting in Vietnam were draftees whereas all of the soldiers fighting in Iraq are professional career soldiers. Consequently, that hard core of resentment that existed in the Vietnam era is not there today.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 9th August 08:36
rsvmilly said:
I've been to the Imperial War museum in Hanoi and it is very interesting to see things from another perspective. There were letters of support to the Vietnamese from many countries along with offers of blood for their wounded.
The losses of human life were staggering. 58,000 Americans and somewhere in the region of half a million Vietnamese.
It became a very unpopular war, both at home and overseas but the distain that veterans were shown on their return to the US was appaling.
so have i and boy do u hate americans after seeing it! people are still living with the effects of agent orange now - anotehr weapon of mass destruction its alright for them to use...
Agent Orange was not an Anti-Personnel weapon. It was designed to defoliate forests and jungles to allow recconaisance aircraft a clear view of Viet Cong re-supply movements from the North. Obviously, it DID affect people who were unfortunate enough to be near where the drops were made - and that includes some of the USAF aircrew who flew the missions.
War is nasty - period. Vietnam was no better or worse than any war. It just happened to be the first war conducted under the full glare of virtually unrestricted media coverage. For the first time, the true nastiness of war was being seen in ordinary homes on a nightly basis and THAT certainly didn't do the US government any favours.
War is nasty - period. Vietnam was no better or worse than any war. It just happened to be the first war conducted under the full glare of virtually unrestricted media coverage. For the first time, the true nastiness of war was being seen in ordinary homes on a nightly basis and THAT certainly didn't do the US government any favours.
Eric Mc said:
Agent Orange was not an Anti-Personnel weapon.
and killing all vegetation wouldn't affect subsistence farmers?
it might not have been intended directly as an anti-personnel weapon (or even anti-civilian), but that was its effect
>> Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 9th August 09:17
hugoagogo said:
Agent Orange was not an Anti-Personnel weapon.
and killing all vegetation wouldn't affect subsistence farmers?
it might not have been intended directly as an anti-personnel weapon (or even anti-civilian), but that was its effect
>> Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 9th August 09:17
quite go and see the effects it still has on people with deformed babies etc and then say its not an anti personnel weapon!!
I can't help looking back on the early-to-mid 20th Century and simply marvelling at the naiviety of people.
I mean, my grandma told me that when she was young she was told that "smoking is good for you".
Shoe shops used to have X-ray machines for measuring your feet.
You could buy radioactive bracelets that were meant to be good for rheumatism.
People thought the atomic bomb was juist a big bomb.
People thought that widespread use of pesticides and herbicides were harmless to humans and our food chain.
I mean, come on? Were people really that naive and stupid, or did they just not care?
I mean, my grandma told me that when she was young she was told that "smoking is good for you".
Shoe shops used to have X-ray machines for measuring your feet.
You could buy radioactive bracelets that were meant to be good for rheumatism.
People thought the atomic bomb was juist a big bomb.
People thought that widespread use of pesticides and herbicides were harmless to humans and our food chain.
I mean, come on? Were people really that naive and stupid, or did they just not care?
I didn't say Agent Orange (and the other substances used) wasn't harmful to people. What I DID say was that it's prime purpose was not anti-personnel.
I certainly was not and would never be an advocate of the use of such "weapons" but when one is fighting a war, sometimes things are done which in normal circumstances would never be countenanced.
If you look back at the original concerns raised about Agent Orange, you will see that the initial reason why people were upset about its use was because of the health risk it posed to USAF personnel, not the Vietnamese.
Upsetting the life of subsistence farmers was rather low in the priorities of US military planners in 1967.
Indeed, the My Lai massacre of 1968 showed the US military personnel were rather unconcerned about the fate of the locals.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 9th August 09:38
I certainly was not and would never be an advocate of the use of such "weapons" but when one is fighting a war, sometimes things are done which in normal circumstances would never be countenanced.
If you look back at the original concerns raised about Agent Orange, you will see that the initial reason why people were upset about its use was because of the health risk it posed to USAF personnel, not the Vietnamese.
Upsetting the life of subsistence farmers was rather low in the priorities of US military planners in 1967.
Indeed, the My Lai massacre of 1968 showed the US military personnel were rather unconcerned about the fate of the locals.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 9th August 09:38
Eric Mc said:
I didn't say it wasn't harmful to people. What I DID say was that it's prime purpose was not anti-personnel.
I certainly was not and would never be an advocate of the use of such "weapons" but when one is fighting a war, sometimes things are done which in normal circumstances would never be countenanced.
Upsetting the life of subsistence farmers was rather low in the priorities of US military planners in 1967.
Indeed, the My Lai massacre of 1968 showed the US military personnel were rather unconcerned about the fate of the locals.
true and as u say war is nasty period - no doubt we'll be saying similar things about depleted uranium shells in iraq in a few years
Chickenhawk by Robert Mason
Great read based on Huey pilot's experiences.
www.robertcmason.com/Books/chpage.html
Great read based on Huey pilot's experiences.
www.robertcmason.com/Books/chpage.html
Eric Mc said:
Agent Orange was not an Anti-Personnel weapon. It was designed to defoliate forests and jungles to allow recconaisance aircraft a clear view of Viet Cong re-supply movements from the North.
I remember watching an excellent documentary (although I suppose there have been quite a few on Vietnam!) where they interviewed a retired top ranking officer in the USAF. He talked about the way that towards the beginning of the war, the Vietcong would use mainly trucks to bring supplies South, but as the US air campaign intensified, the Ho Chi Minh (sp?) trail grew to be a whole network of tracks through the jungles, hence the use of Agent Orange. For the tinier tracks, the VC couldn't use motorised transport, so would rig up a bamboo frame across a bicycles handlebars and sling big panniers over it. The American officer said "I knew we couldn't win the war when we got to the point of using a $15m Phantom jet to hunt a guy on a bicycle..." Bizarre what can happen in war.
What a lovely quote. And sums up the fundamental differences between the two sides in that war.I was only very young when it was ending, but I have to say that it is one of my earliest memories. I can still remember watching the news coverage of the evacuation of siagon (sp?) at the very end. I can still remember it vividly... quite amazing really.
So much so, I am cautious of what I allow my children to watch. I am not bitter and twisted or anything about it - but it might be nicer to have an earlier memory than people trying to escape the NVA by clinging onto helicopters etc.....
So much so, I am cautious of what I allow my children to watch. I am not bitter and twisted or anything about it - but it might be nicer to have an earlier memory than people trying to escape the NVA by clinging onto helicopters etc.....
Eric Mc said:
From the perspective of today, the poor reception many returning Vietnam combatants received in the US does seem bad. However, you have to place yourself in the context of the times.
Regardless of the popularity of the war, it seems terribly unfair to pour scorn on the poor sods who were ordered to fight out there. (Yeah, I know. Life is unfair!)
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