When does child abuse become assault?
Discussion
Sorry for the long post, however I won't ramble on but we've had a very worrying incident happen recently at our house, which to save time and boredom I'll put into bullet points to try to give all the facts.
Daughter has 16th birthday party on Saturday - All goes well.
Several friends stay over and there are hangovers in the morning.
One girl - Girl "X" phones in sick to work.
Girl "X"'s mother is away at some social event, step father is at home looking after 1yr old twins.
Girl "X" phones mother whilst away to let her know that she's still at ours but will be home later.
Girl "X" mother, looses the plot completely - girl puts mother on speaker phone, and I can confirm the words of "I'm gonna rip your f:censored:ing head off you f:censored:ed up little cow" etc etc is coming from mums mouth. Mother is now rushing home to deal with Girl "X"
Girl "X" is a little apprehensive about going home.
Mother phones up and carries on the verbal abuse, poor girl really hasn't done anything to warrant this. Mother says that girl should come home now - no buses as it's sunday, howeverr if she's not home in 20 mins, telling girl she can move out and never come back.
Girl "X" says to her mom she'll get a few things and stay at ours for a few days until everything is calmed down. Mother says fine.
I take Girl "X" home at which point she is told that if she even tries to take a clean pair of skiddies the step father will restrain her. Apparently, its now all changed and she can take nothing and never darken this dorr again!! Obviosuly I've stayed in teh car, not my place to get involved at this point. She comes out in tears, my daughter has been with her in the house.
I tell her it'll blow over mother probalby having bad day or whatever blah blah... says she can stop for a few days, send mother a text to tell her where you are etc, give them some money to go up the town centre to get some clean undies and a few tops for work etc.
All calm. No contact from mother girl is chilled and says she'll go back on Tuesday and sort things out. I tell her no problems stay as long as you need but try to sort things out sooner rather than later.
I go to work on Monday morning - I work away all week.
Get a call Monday night at 11:30, parents have just been around to our house.
Our missus has invited them in so they can sit down and talk it out with Girl "X", at which point they refuse and just keep saying they want their daughter to come down and tell them what she has been saying about them. My wife points out that she'd heard her calls on loudspeaker and Girl "X" hasn't been saying anything.
MY wife still think they need to talk it out so Girl "X" who is in bed, comes to door in nighty.
Wife explains she doesnt want to come home right now as she's scared she'll get battered - mother says, "I on'y hit her cos she lies and steals from us" WTF?? Like thats ok to give your kid a battering??
It all changes, Mother then starts accusing us of kidnapping!! and lunges at daughter! WTF??? grabs daughter by the arm and litterally rips her out of the front door. Girl "X" is then dragged barefooted down our gravel driveway, kicking screaming and crying, and down onto the road and stuffed into the car!. Step father stands infront of my wife and although doesn;t touch her makes it obvious she's not going after her.
My wife instantly tells daughter to call the police.
Wife "voices" her dismay at the situation, and while step father is arguing and blocking our missus he says, and I quote : "She's her mother and I'm her step father and we can do what the hell we like with her."
When I was told this I felt sick, is it me or there any reason why the kid may be going off the rails a bit??? And does that not put a feeling of dread into you? But she's a nice girl, she's been on holiday with us and been no bother at all, and we've known her for years. Just a normal rebellious, sometimes in a little trouble teenager, but not a loony as her mother would have us believe.
Police response was "Nothing we can do, it's just a mother taking their kid home"
All her stuff is at our house - her clothes, purse, mobile phone everything. I'm still stuck up here, and it's stressing me out.
Social services have been called who will "look into it"..... We can't contact the girl without going around, so I don't know whats happened to her.
Sorry for the long post I'm just in shock as to how an "adult" can act this way. giving physical and continuos mental abuse to a child. I realise there is a lot worse out there, but this just all stinks to me.
I've told my daughter if Girl "X" can contact social services herself and make it official, she can move in with us. I'm just obviously wary of doing anything outside of legal channels expecially after beeing accused of being a kidnapper!
So, how come then if I'd have manhandled a 16 year old girl in the town centre I would have been locked up for assault, yet a parent can do it quite legitemately apparently??
What would you do?
Any advice appreciated,
Thanks,
JC
Daughter has 16th birthday party on Saturday - All goes well.
Several friends stay over and there are hangovers in the morning.
One girl - Girl "X" phones in sick to work.
Girl "X"'s mother is away at some social event, step father is at home looking after 1yr old twins.
Girl "X" phones mother whilst away to let her know that she's still at ours but will be home later.
Girl "X" mother, looses the plot completely - girl puts mother on speaker phone, and I can confirm the words of "I'm gonna rip your f:censored:ing head off you f:censored:ed up little cow" etc etc is coming from mums mouth. Mother is now rushing home to deal with Girl "X"
Girl "X" is a little apprehensive about going home.
Mother phones up and carries on the verbal abuse, poor girl really hasn't done anything to warrant this. Mother says that girl should come home now - no buses as it's sunday, howeverr if she's not home in 20 mins, telling girl she can move out and never come back.
Girl "X" says to her mom she'll get a few things and stay at ours for a few days until everything is calmed down. Mother says fine.
I take Girl "X" home at which point she is told that if she even tries to take a clean pair of skiddies the step father will restrain her. Apparently, its now all changed and she can take nothing and never darken this dorr again!! Obviosuly I've stayed in teh car, not my place to get involved at this point. She comes out in tears, my daughter has been with her in the house.
I tell her it'll blow over mother probalby having bad day or whatever blah blah... says she can stop for a few days, send mother a text to tell her where you are etc, give them some money to go up the town centre to get some clean undies and a few tops for work etc.
All calm. No contact from mother girl is chilled and says she'll go back on Tuesday and sort things out. I tell her no problems stay as long as you need but try to sort things out sooner rather than later.
I go to work on Monday morning - I work away all week.
Get a call Monday night at 11:30, parents have just been around to our house.
Our missus has invited them in so they can sit down and talk it out with Girl "X", at which point they refuse and just keep saying they want their daughter to come down and tell them what she has been saying about them. My wife points out that she'd heard her calls on loudspeaker and Girl "X" hasn't been saying anything.
MY wife still think they need to talk it out so Girl "X" who is in bed, comes to door in nighty.
Wife explains she doesnt want to come home right now as she's scared she'll get battered - mother says, "I on'y hit her cos she lies and steals from us" WTF?? Like thats ok to give your kid a battering??
It all changes, Mother then starts accusing us of kidnapping!! and lunges at daughter! WTF??? grabs daughter by the arm and litterally rips her out of the front door. Girl "X" is then dragged barefooted down our gravel driveway, kicking screaming and crying, and down onto the road and stuffed into the car!. Step father stands infront of my wife and although doesn;t touch her makes it obvious she's not going after her.
My wife instantly tells daughter to call the police.
Wife "voices" her dismay at the situation, and while step father is arguing and blocking our missus he says, and I quote : "She's her mother and I'm her step father and we can do what the hell we like with her."
When I was told this I felt sick, is it me or there any reason why the kid may be going off the rails a bit??? And does that not put a feeling of dread into you? But she's a nice girl, she's been on holiday with us and been no bother at all, and we've known her for years. Just a normal rebellious, sometimes in a little trouble teenager, but not a loony as her mother would have us believe.
Police response was "Nothing we can do, it's just a mother taking their kid home"
All her stuff is at our house - her clothes, purse, mobile phone everything. I'm still stuck up here, and it's stressing me out.
Social services have been called who will "look into it"..... We can't contact the girl without going around, so I don't know whats happened to her.
Sorry for the long post I'm just in shock as to how an "adult" can act this way. giving physical and continuos mental abuse to a child. I realise there is a lot worse out there, but this just all stinks to me.
I've told my daughter if Girl "X" can contact social services herself and make it official, she can move in with us. I'm just obviously wary of doing anything outside of legal channels expecially after beeing accused of being a kidnapper!
So, how come then if I'd have manhandled a 16 year old girl in the town centre I would have been locked up for assault, yet a parent can do it quite legitemately apparently??
What would you do?
Any advice appreciated,
Thanks,
JC
What are you prepared to do?
The girl is obviously in at least mental trouble staying there. Is she fit to go solo? Do you want an extra daughter?
I personally would take her in and make it known to the parents that they are in deep shit and at risk if they even knock at the door. I have that luxury.
The feds wont be interested unless she wants to press charges so sometimes you have to just do what you can.
And take the flying shit when it arrives.
The girl is obviously in at least mental trouble staying there. Is she fit to go solo? Do you want an extra daughter?
I personally would take her in and make it known to the parents that they are in deep shit and at risk if they even knock at the door. I have that luxury.
The feds wont be interested unless she wants to press charges so sometimes you have to just do what you can.
And take the flying shit when it arrives.
They can do it because they are her legal guardians and have the right to "reasonably chastise" their child. The problem is that "reasonable chastisement" is open to interpretation, and what you consider too much may be within the boundaries of what the authorities deem reasonable.
If you're really worried then ring the NSPCC as they have a real drive at the moment on child abuse like this. The thing is though, she will need to concur with everything you say and if she backs down a bit because she doesn't want the aggro, then nothing will get done.
If you're really worried then ring the NSPCC as they have a real drive at the moment on child abuse like this. The thing is though, she will need to concur with everything you say and if she backs down a bit because she doesn't want the aggro, then nothing will get done.
IvIark said:
They can do it because they are her legal guardians and have the right to "reasonably chastise" their child. The problem is that "reasonable chastisement" is open to interpretation, and what you consider too much may be within the boundaries of what the authorities deem reasonable.
If you're really worried then ring the NSPCC as they have a real drive at the moment on child abuse like this. The thing is though, she will need to concur with everything you say and if she backs down a bit because she doesn't want the aggro, then nothing will get done.
I think you've hit the nail... I can beleive she could easily say everything is ok when it's not, and witnessing the verbal abuse alone, I can understand why she may not want to fight it - which then leaves very few options. I just hate seeing this - I really believe that 99% of kids are what the parents make them, which doesn;t give her much chance.
jconsta6 said:
I think you've hit the nail... I can beleive she could easily say everything is ok when it's not, and witnessing the verbal abuse alone, I can understand why she may not want to fight it - which then leaves very few options. I just hate seeing this - I really believe that 99% of kids are what the parents make them, which doesn;t give her much chance.
Unfortunately in this world there are kids that don't deserve it who are treated badly, and too many kids who could do with a kick up the arse who are left to their own devices because their parents couldn't be bothered and are too busy watching telly to realise what's going on anyway.
I agree with the reasonable chastisement defence as there are instances where (in my opinion of course) a short sharp shock is the best way to dissuade your child from doing something dangerous again (put a fork in the plug socket, or run out into a busy road etc), and I don't think parents who do this should be criminalised. Unfortunately there are those who take things too far or do it for the wrong reasons.
Perhaps the police would have done something if your wife had said that the step father physically menaced her. To behave in a threatening manner warrants a police response .
Not sure what you can do. Awful as it sounds, you may have to distance yourself (and your own daughter) from it as much as possible. I for one would make bloody sure your own daughter never goes round there again. Its ok to see the girl, but I would not want my kids in the company of a couple who are clearly not quite right.
P~
Not sure what you can do. Awful as it sounds, you may have to distance yourself (and your own daughter) from it as much as possible. I for one would make bloody sure your own daughter never goes round there again. Its ok to see the girl, but I would not want my kids in the company of a couple who are clearly not quite right.
P~
Once she is 16, she has the right to live where she wants. I found this out when my parents split up when I was 15. The judge in the custody case said that he wasn't going to make an order as to where I should live as I would be able to ignore it in a few weeks anyway.
An unpleasant situation this one. Big thumbs up to you for taking an interest though. Many people wouldn't want to get involved.
An unpleasant situation this one. Big thumbs up to you for taking an interest though. Many people wouldn't want to get involved.
Hi JC,
Just extend an invitation to come and stay with you for a while if she needs to through her work place. From what it sounds like she probably wont be much bother at all and given that your family know her quite well. You cant really do much except offer her refuge but if you extend a kind gesture hopefully you will be able to force a result beneficial for her.
Good luck! We all admire a good man on PH, particularly one who is willing to stick his neck out.
Just extend an invitation to come and stay with you for a while if she needs to through her work place. From what it sounds like she probably wont be much bother at all and given that your family know her quite well. You cant really do much except offer her refuge but if you extend a kind gesture hopefully you will be able to force a result beneficial for her.
Good luck! We all admire a good man on PH, particularly one who is willing to stick his neck out.
IvIark said:
jconsta6 said:
I think you've hit the nail... I can beleive she could easily say everything is ok when it's not, and witnessing the verbal abuse alone, I can understand why she may not want to fight it - which then leaves very few options. I just hate seeing this - I really believe that 99% of kids are what the parents make them, which doesn;t give her much chance.
Unfortunately in this world there are kids that don't deserve it who are treated badly, and too many kids who could do with a kick up the arse who are left to their own devices because their parents couldn't be bothered and are too busy watching telly to realise what's going on anyway.
I agree with the reasonable chastisement defence as there are instances where (in my opinion of course) a short sharp shock is the best way to dissuade your child from doing something dangerous again (put a fork in the plug socket, or run out into a busy road etc), and I don't think parents who do this should be criminalised. Unfortunately there are those who take things too far or do it for the wrong reasons.
I agree - don't get me wrong, if my child had stolen from me, I would be less than happy, however my reaction wouldn't be to hit a 16yr old. I've smacked my youngest in the past and I still stand by the fact that if you are still smacking a child past 7 or 8 ish, then there are bigger problems. My youngest is now 7 and I can't see me ever smacking a child again. I'm glad of that fact, as its a horrible unpleaseant thing to do, however as described in certain circumstances is, in my oppinion, the best and instant way of permanently installing a mental note of, "Dont' do that again" to a young child whoo you can not quickly explain the full ramifications of their impending actions to.
dragging a 16 year old girl in her nighty down a rough gravel driveway barfooted into the street, is, in my oppion a humiliating, painful, abusive expereince, that any reasonable parent SHOULDN'T have to resort to.
I think by the time a child is 16, you role becomes very much a "supportive" and "advise when required" or requested role. I don't tell my daughter what to do on a daily basis, and bloody glad I don't have to.
It's all just so wrong, the girl is being treated like a 10 year old, yet in 18 months time will be out in the real world equipped with the same rights and powers as everyone else. Which is fine, but I don;t think she will have the life experience or backup she needs to help her get on her way.
And thats why society is going down the pan.... sh
ty parenting. JC
>> Edited by jconsta6 on Wednesday 17th August 10:49
This is sickening 
It's about time a parenting licence was required to procreate. This poor girl's parents need to learn that children are not property to be abused however they see fit.
Well done JC for offering a safe haven for her - she really does need to get away from those morons asap!
It's about time a parenting licence was required to procreate. This poor girl's parents need to learn that children are not property to be abused however they see fit.
Well done JC for offering a safe haven for her - she really does need to get away from those morons asap!
Call me a prude but kids are only kids for a very short while - Why do they want to be knocking alcohol back at the age of 16? Why would adults actively condone this?
If it were me I would offer to take her in, if I felt she was in real danger but I would also be looking at the circumstances that led to the initial argument (i.e. her not going home because she was sick because she had been drinking at a party)
I would do everything I could to keep my own kids away from the chulture of alcohol that we have in this country. My extended faily have issues with alcohol and I have seen first hand the destruction that it can cause when not used sensible. The trouble is, whenever are kids sensible with anything new?
If it were me I would offer to take her in, if I felt she was in real danger but I would also be looking at the circumstances that led to the initial argument (i.e. her not going home because she was sick because she had been drinking at a party)
I would do everything I could to keep my own kids away from the chulture of alcohol that we have in this country. My extended faily have issues with alcohol and I have seen first hand the destruction that it can cause when not used sensible. The trouble is, whenever are kids sensible with anything new?
volvos70t5 said:
Call me a prude but kids are only kids for a very short while - Why do they want to be knocking alcohol back at the age of 16? Why would adults actively condone this?
Disagree with this surely it is better for "kids" to drink alcohol sensibly and in a controlled environment rather than to hide it away from them until they hit 18 and can go the pubs etc.
I for one was allowed the odd drink here and there at meal times unlike my friends who now tend to be the ones who go out and get so drunk they can't walk. I on the other hand know where my limit is (most of the time
) Just look at the situation in France, I don't think they have the same "drink" problems with their young people as we do and they are actively encouraged to drink wine with meals.
It takes the mystery out of alcohol! Which can only be a good thing!
The girl can decide where she wants to live. I would be more concerened about maintianing discipline and control in my home. You have allowed your wife to be prevented from leaving your door by a miscreant. If I were in your shoes I would be deciding his punishment and implimenting it.
volvos70t5 said:
Call me a prude but kids are only kids for a very short while - Why do they want to be knocking alcohol back at the age of 16? Why would adults actively condone this?
I was given small glasses of Champagne by my Grandfather at about 8 or 9.. and when my mother objected, was told 'The Boy's got to learn to drink!'
vixpy1 said:
Call me a prude but kids are only kids for a very short while - Why do they want to be knocking alcohol back at the age of 16? Why would adults actively condone this?
I was given small glasses of Champagne by my Grandfather at about 8 or 9.. and when my mother objected, was told 'The Boy's got to learn to drink!'
Never did though, did you Vixp?
I don't see what's wrong with drink at a 16th birthday. It sounds like it was under parental control anyway.
I'd rather my (future-if-i-ever-had-one) daughter drank under my guidance than away from me and out of control. I think if a kid drinks with it's parents then some of the mystery is taken away.
Anyway - perhaps this is going off the point.
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