Iran..Ime confused.
Discussion
Lately with all that the media are telling us about Iran with its new anti western Prime Minister(or whatever he is) and the nuclear program that they want to progress ive been under the impression that this was a staunch Muslim anti west country.
Last night i saw on the news a report on Iran and was shocked to see that this is not so,infact they are becoming or looking like a pro western society in some ways,even woman dropping the traditional dress in favour of a more western look with heavy make up.
They seem to want to become like a westernised society but they dont want to recognise international law and they still had buildings with profesionally painted anti American Slogans painted on them,confused :confused:
Last night i saw on the news a report on Iran and was shocked to see that this is not so,infact they are becoming or looking like a pro western society in some ways,even woman dropping the traditional dress in favour of a more western look with heavy make up.
They seem to want to become like a westernised society but they dont want to recognise international law and they still had buildings with profesionally painted anti American Slogans painted on them,confused :confused:
racefan_uk said:
Maybe now that the US has all these soldiers just across the border they're thinking that they can finish the ob they set out to do when they supported Saddam Hussein all those years ago.
Just a thought...
I don't think there are enough soldiers to invade Iran. I don't see what anyone has to gain from it either, apart from the usual US defence contractors.
scorp said:
Maybe now that the US has all these soldiers just across the border they're thinking that they can finish the ob they set out to do when they supported Saddam Hussein all those years ago.
Just a thought...
I don't think there are enough soldiers to invade Iran. I don't see what anyone has to gain from it either, apart from the usual US defence contractors.
I feel that Iran is divided and ripe for its own people to "go western" on their own. As stated, the people are very much westernized(aside from a zealot, albeit influencial, minority). I believe that those in Iran who want Democracy are emboldened by the acts of the Iraqi electorate.
oh come off it - like many of these troublesome countries there is a well educated fairly liberal middle class in the urban centres.
Then you have the huddled masses living in pretty poor agrarian enclaves where religion governs all walks of life in a very literal way, and people still believe in superstition and are wary of change. Hence the power of the religious lobby in the country to the extent that this governs foreign policy.
And I think Iran mirrors the USA in this respect very clearly.
In neither case is the educated liberal urban minority about to topple the authority of the majority religious factions. Shame....
(and yes it is a windup - but you ahve to agree at this level there are clear parallels between the two!)...
Then you have the huddled masses living in pretty poor agrarian enclaves where religion governs all walks of life in a very literal way, and people still believe in superstition and are wary of change. Hence the power of the religious lobby in the country to the extent that this governs foreign policy.
And I think Iran mirrors the USA in this respect very clearly.
In neither case is the educated liberal urban minority about to topple the authority of the majority religious factions. Shame....
(and yes it is a windup - but you ahve to agree at this level there are clear parallels between the two!)...
mr_tony said:
oh come off it - like many of these troublesome countries there is a well educated fairly liberal middle class in the urban centres.
Then you have the huddled masses living in pretty poor agrarian enclaves where religion governs all walks of life in a very literal way, and people still believe in superstition and are wary of change. Hence the power of the religious lobby in the country to the extent that this governs foreign policy.
And I think Iran mirrors the USA in this respect very clearly.
In neither case is the educated liberal urban minority about to topple the authorty of the majority religious factions. Shame....
(and yes it is a windup - but you ahve to agree at this level there are clear parallels between the two!)...
Yes! I can see clearly now...we ARE just like Iran
I am off to sign up for Greenpeace.....scorp said:
I don't think there are enough soldiers to invade Iran. I don't see what anyone has to gain from it either, apart from the usual US defence contractors.
Invading Iran would be insane, especially after the F' up in Iraq. Just after the Ayatollah took control of Iran we had a huge amount of public support from ordinary Iranians. Our support for SH during the Iran/Iraq war put paid to that pretty decisively.
US defence contractors???? Are you implying that there's money to be made from wars & that the US is after that money?! Look closer to home, I worked in defence during that time & we were supporting SH (& making money from him), under the "idea" that maybe he'd get rid of the Ayatollah & stabilise the region. However, when the Shah was running Iran he'd spent a lot of money buying defence equipment from us eg. Chieftain tanks. Countries do not generally buy large amounts of military hardware without a contract to provide future support for it (especially if they need to use it during a war). None of the above is secret, the facts are freely available (even on the Net). Work it out, the US defence contractors very likely learnt their tactics from ours.
After that war ended there was still a lot of Iranians wanting to live a more free lifestyle than that available under religious crackpots, but they were far less inclined to be friendly to the West. Maybe the fact that so many Iranians were killed by Iraqis that were openly supported by the West may have something to do with it?
Nice little essay there L81, but your talking about the past, in todays world it is the US who are spending huge amounts on defence, it is the US who are predicting all kinds of threats to there own security to justify the massive amount of resource spent on arms (including r&d). If it makes you feel better i consider our own (uk) government to be just as bad, except we don't have any lucrative reconstruction contracts or oil pumping contracts
The past (if you can call 20 years ago the past in the modern political climate) is important in this case as it explains some of what's going on. We were very matey with the Shah & were happy to deal with the Iranians & make money out of them. They, or the ones I met, were very happy at living a western lifestyle & could party like pros! After the Ayatollah took over there was still a LOT of that pro-western feeling in Iran, but supporting SH in a long & bloody war killed a lot of that support, not surprisingly. Being only 20 years back means that the Iranians remember what we did & it's very likely that they don't trust us one little bit (& I don't blame them). Cliff was surprised that there are people in Iraq who seem westernised but I'm saying that there always were, I've met some, a workmate was married to one, they are about as westernised as somebody born here. There'd probably be a lot less anti-western feeling in Iran if, in the past, we hadn't shafted them.
This is not an essy
This is not an essy
L81 said:
The past (if you can call 20 years ago the past in the modern political climate) is important in this case as it explains some of what's going on. We were very matey with the Shah & were happy to deal with the Iranians & make money out of them. They, or the ones I met, were very happy at living a western lifestyle & could party like pros! After the Ayatollah took over there was still a LOT of that pro-western feeling in Iran, but supporting SH in a long & bloody war killed a lot of that support, not surprisingly. Being only 20 years back means that the Iranians remember what we did & it's very likely that they don't trust us one little bit (& I don't blame them). Cliff was surprised that there are people in Iraq who seem westernised but I'm saying that there always were, I've met some, a workmate was married to one, they are about as westernised as somebody born here. There'd probably be a lot less anti-western feeling in Iran if, in the past, we hadn't shafted them.
This is not an essy
Come to think of it i remember when the Shah was deposed,didnt alot of the Old Shas set up and supporters make it to the UK and wouldnt they of backed a war against the Ayatollah?
L81 said:
The past (if you can call 20 years ago the past in the modern political climate) is important in this case as it explains some of what's going on. We were very matey with the Shah & were happy to deal with the Iranians & make money out of them. They, or the ones I met, were very happy at living a western lifestyle & could party like pros! After the Ayatollah took over there was still a LOT of that pro-western feeling in Iran, but supporting SH in a long & bloody war killed a lot of that support, not surprisingly. Being only 20 years back means that the Iranians remember what we did & it's very likely that they don't trust us one little bit (& I don't blame them). Cliff was surprised that there are people in Iraq who seem westernised but I'm saying that there always were, I've met some, a workmate was married to one, they are about as westernised as somebody born here. There'd probably be a lot less anti-western feeling in Iran if, in the past, we hadn't shafted them.
This is not an essy
I don't mind if Iranians are screaming death to america and death to britain, what i do mind is us bombing them back to the stone age for no good reason. If anyone should have an axe to grind its the Iranians, not us.
Liberalised Iran is very much alive and very much behind closed doors. There is a public and private face to most people. The genuine problem is that for all of its elections, Iran is still essentially a totalitarian state. The cleric-filled Revolutionary Council is dedicated to keeping the Islamic spirit of the revolution alive and wields real power in the country. Some politicians (such as rafsanjani) tried to make small reforms but quickly lost power when anything big was attempted.
The Revolutionary Council backed by the elite revolutionary guard will not allow Iran to truly liberalise, so the country is left with a people with a significantly different mindset to their rulers but largely unable to do anything about it.
The Revolutionary Council backed by the elite revolutionary guard will not allow Iran to truly liberalise, so the country is left with a people with a significantly different mindset to their rulers but largely unable to do anything about it.
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