Stella remington puts a spanner in the works!
Discussion
BBC said:
courtesy of the bbc
Stella Rimington said ID cards were unlikely to make Britain safer
The case for identity cards has been branded "bogus" after an ex-MI5 chief said they might not help fight terror.
Dame Stella Rimington has said most documents could be forged and this would render ID cards "useless". The Conservatives said her comments showed the cards could be counter-productive. The Lib Dems said plans should be abandoned.
Downing Street has so far only said Dame Stella is a private individual who was entitled to her views.
Her comments came as the government suffered a House of Lords defeat on the ID card plans.
Peers said only those who reasonably required proof should be entitled to ask for verification of identity when the cards come into use.
'Waste of money'
The government has argued the cards scheme will help prevent terrorism, organised crime, illegal immigration and fraud.
Dame Stella retired as head of MI5 in 1996 but gave her personal views on the cards at the Association of Colleges annual conference in Birmingham.
She said: "ID cards have possibly some purpose.
Tony Blair is always saying we should listen to the experts, this time he should be listening
Mark Oaten
"But I don't think that anybody in the intelligence services, particularly in my former service, would be pressing for ID cards.
"My angle on ID cards is that they may be of some use but only if they can be made unforgeable - and all our other documentation is quite easy to forge.
"If we have ID cards at vast expense and people can go into a back room and forge them they are going to be absolutely useless.
"ID cards may be helpful in all kinds of things but I don't think they are necessarily going to make us any safer."
Privacy fears
Conservative shadow home secretary David Davis seized on the comments, saying: "Yet again we see that the government's arguments for ID cards are completely bogus.
"Stella Rimington would know better than any government minister the security value of ID cards.
If Ian Huntley had had an identity card, would he have got the job at Soham school which allowed him to commit the murders?
Lord Mackenzie
Ex-government crime adviser
"What she has demonstrated is that they will be a spectacular and probably counterproductive waste of money - an unnecessary incursion on people's privacy."
Lib Dem home affairs spokesman Mark Oaten said Tony Blair had urged MPs last week to listen to the experts on terrorism when he tried to garner support for new terror laws.
"When someone of Stella Rimington's experience expresses these doubts, the government should listen and abandon this scheme before wasting any more taxpayers money," he said.
"Tony Blair is always saying we should listen to the experts, this time he should be listening."
Soham murders
Former government crime advisor Lord Mackenzie disagreed with Dame Stella's assessment, saying there were plenty of examples of occasions when ID cards would have prevented crime.
He told BBC News: "Let's look at the Soham murders. If Ian Huntley had had an identity card, would he have got the job at Soham school which allowed him to commit the murders? I think not."
But Shami Chakrabarti, director of civil liberties pressure group Liberty, described the former security chief's comments as "another nail in the coffin of the massive identity card folly".
Calling for ID card plans to be scrapped, she added: "Sadly, the arguments that ID cards will protect the UK from terrorist attacks are largely unconvincing.
"The men responsible for the 9/11 and Madrid terrorist attacks had valid identification."
At last, a shred of sense!
BBC said:
Former government crime advisor Lord Mackenzie disagreed with Dame Stella's assessment, saying there were plenty of examples of occasions when ID cards would have prevented crime.
He told BBC News: "Let's look at the Soham murders. If Ian Huntley had had an identity card, would he have got the job at Soham school which allowed him to commit the murders? I think not."
Of course he would, didn't the cops delete/lose information about his criminal record?, just because you have a card it doesn't mean that anyone would validate/check it would it? Rather like following up references and checking qualifications, it's an option that many employers don't bother with. ID cards == Just another Tax, and a mechanism for collecting even more personal information for the government to sell to market research agenices and insurance companies.
staceyb said:
I personally dont see the problem with id cards if you've got nothing to hide whats the problem? For most people it would go in the back pocket/purse/wallet with their driving license and cards and never be touched til needed.
It's not the card that's the problenm it's the database that backs it up, and if you can't see a problem with that then I suggest you do some research -here would be a good idea.
so do these ID cards have special telepathic powers that stops people from commiting crime? If Ian Huntley wanted to kill school children he would have, regardless of an ID card residing in his wallet. If a terrorist wants to get on a bus, and blow himself up, the ID card isn't going to jam the detonator is it? it's all about the illusion of control, if HM Government can get this through the masses will follow blindly, believing it will stop everything, from mugging to asteroid collisions!
BBC said:
Downing Street has so far only said Dame Stella is a private individual who was entitled to her views.
She's being discredited already.
BBC said:
If Ian Huntley had had an identity card, would he have got the job at Soham school which allowed him to commit the murders?
So the terrorism argument falls over, and we have this as the excuse for bringing them in.
Tony Bliar will get his ID cards, just like he gotten everything else his own way
Einion Yrth said:
I personally dont see the problem with id cards if you've got nothing to hide whats the problem? For most people it would go in the back pocket/purse/wallet with their driving license and cards and never be touched til needed.
It's not the card that's the problenm it's the database that backs it up, and if you can't see a problem with that then I suggest you do some research -here would be a good idea.
I'd rather get any information I read from a non-biased source so I can make my own decisions thank you very much, rather than reading pre-decided drivel.
Its not so much what you have to hide, but the fact that you are a private citizen, and as such, your information should be your own business. pass port info is fine for Governments to have , but some of it stinks of Big Brother. Who else has access to the info. Who can change it. What about mistakes. What effect would that have on my finances, ability to gain employment, etc... Nothing is private anymore. We pride ourselves on a free country, but each freedom is slowly being taken, leaving us in a sort of prison, with eyes everywhere, and a government that knows everything about you. What you spend money on, where you go, what you do, who you know...
Einion Yrth said:
I personally dont see the problem with id cards if you've got nothing to hide whats the problem? For most people it would go in the back pocket/purse/wallet with their driving license and cards and never be touched til needed.
It's not the card that's the problenm it's the database that backs it up, and if you can't see a problem with that then I suggest you do some research -here would be a good idea.
With almost all large projects, public or private, there needs to be a business case to justify the cost. In the case of ID cards its terrorism and fraud. Plainly these are not necessarily going to work as it would be possible to get around the system. As with ANPR, the technology is pretty sound and as secure as we can currently do. BUT, these particular "sales" points just arent convincing enough for almost everyone.
However, in general I am not specifically opposed to ID cards. They would have benefits and would simplify our lives - though not through security though. Wouldnt it be nice to be able to be positively identified when necessary? I dont mean being stopped by police here, I mean those rare occassions that we deal with the state as a whole. What about registering with your council when you have moved? Or when you get some form of benefit from the state - like child benefit or even SSP.... being able to reduce the paperwork, letters and effort of everyone involved has to be a benefit.....
BUT, the problem with the whole system is the data that is held - is it accurate and up to date? The DVLA admits that 40% of its data is wrong, so how wrong are the other records on us? What will be the process for correcting this? And how do we deal with the people who's data is wrong but need various support services from the state? Although it is a little farfetched, I dread the day that we have someone die at the front door of a hospital because they cant get support because their ID card data is incorrect.... given the far reaching plans proposed, its not as unlikely as they say.... people make mistakes and there is no room for error here....
Einion Yrth said:
I'd rather get any information I read from a non-biased source so I can make my own decisions thank you very much, rather than reading pre-decided drivel.
Oh the irony.
What irony? I dont see the problem with id cards, you do, so the first thing you is direct me to an anti-card site to change my mind.
Like I said I would rather make my own decisions, whether they be right or wrong IN YOUR OPINION they are my decisions.
staceyb said:Fine. Well in that case, tell me your bra size and what colour pants you're wearing. If you have nothing to hide then you can't object.
I personally dont see the problem with id cards if you've got nothing to hide whats the problem? For most people it would go in the back pocket/purse/wallet with their driving license and cards and never be touched til needed.
Yes, I know. I have no right to know that information and no right to ask you to divulge it to me, and that is indeed my point. The government equally have no right to much of the information they seek to gather with this scheme and I beleive equally have no right to ask me for it.
Isn't it funny how the Government trot our Ian Blair when it suits them becaus ehe is in support fo the 90 day detnetion policy.
But they try to discredit someone like Stella Rimmington who will have much more experience of terrorism than Ian Blair just because she opposes Government policy.
Question for staceyb:
How will an ID card prevent a repeat of the 7th July bomings?
But they try to discredit someone like Stella Rimmington who will have much more experience of terrorism than Ian Blair just because she opposes Government policy.
Question for staceyb:
How will an ID card prevent a repeat of the 7th July bomings?
staceyb said:
I'd rather get any information I read from a non-biased source so I can make my own decisions thank you very much, rather than reading pre-decided drivel.
Oh the irony.
What irony? I dont see the problem with id cards, you do, so the first thing you is direct me to an anti-card site to change my mind.
Like I said I would rather make my own decisions, whether they be right or wrong IN YOUR OPINION they are my decisions.
Most sane people would read arguments from both sides of a divide, pick and choose from the arguments brought forward by those sides and then synthesise their own opinion. You apparently are not even prepared to read the case as put by the anti-id card side and then rail at me about 'pre-decided drivel' - I don't really care which side you decide to agree with in the end, but if you are not prepared to even consider both sides of the argument then you madam are a fool.
JonRB said:
I personally dont see the problem with id cards if you've got nothing to hide whats the problem? For most people it would go in the back pocket/purse/wallet with their driving license and cards and never be touched til needed.
Yes, I know. I have no right to know that information and no right to ask you to divulge it to me, and that is indeed my point. The government equally have no right to much of the information they seek to gather with this scheme and I beleive equally have no right to ask me for it.
Jon's right Stacey.
You say you have nothing to hide, but how do you know what you have to hide?
In the Grauniad each week is a risible double-page spread called 'ethical living', and it's all about basically compromising everything about your life and being totally miserable and weak in the name of 'saving the planet'. It's all pretty much on the premise that humans should act like they're not supposed to be alive.
Can you imagine if the Environment agency latched onto these cards behind the scenes? Picture the letter you might get:
A letter said:
Dear StaceyB,
Breakdown of monthly fines is as follows:
On November 28th you failed to sort some glass bottles correctly and as a result they were not sent to the correct recycling centre - £30 fine.
On November 30th you drove at 35 mph in a 30 zone, thus creating greater emissions and endangering the lives of others - 3 points and £60 fine.
On December 2nd you drove at 90 mph on the motorway which results in a mandatory 6 month driving ban and a £100 fine.
On December 3rd you used a larger than average amount of water for the year. Water wastage is not tolerated and entails a £20 fine.
On December 5th you used a hosepipe despite a hosepipe ban being in place, to do some work in the garden, £50 fine.
On December 10th you travelled to work by car on your own. We do not encourage single-occupancy car travel, £30 fine.
Failure to pay fines will lead to legal action and a potential 2 month prison sentence
You see, even going about your normal daily business might cost you, in this case, £260 and the loss of your driving license for 6 months plus further costs if you don't comply with their every whim.
Having a card that proves your identification is fine, but we have those already - they're called passports, birth certificates and driving licences.
These ID cards use a lot of technology and cost a fortune - you can bet the government are wanting to keep tracks on its population's every move. They'll also need to employ lots of people to monitor this and they'll pay them out of fines and taxes.
So unless you're prepared to live as though George Monbiot's following you round all day with a notebook, I wouldn't be so blase about these overpriced ID cards.
First they came for the communists,
I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out because I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out because I was not a Jew;
And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
-- Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)
You could equally re-write along the lines of "When they banned 4x4's I didn't speak out because I didn't own a 4x4", and indeed, "when they said we had to have an ID card I didn't speak out because I had nothing to hide".
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 17th November 13:30
I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out because I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out because I was not a Jew;
And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
-- Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)
You could equally re-write along the lines of "When they banned 4x4's I didn't speak out because I didn't own a 4x4", and indeed, "when they said we had to have an ID card I didn't speak out because I had nothing to hide".
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 17th November 13:30
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