Chemistry! (Help please...)

[zaktoo]

Hi all

Can anyone help me understand the practical differences between "natural" and synthetic fragrances please? I'm guessing most synthetics are esthers, but what does that mean to a bunny-loving tree-hugging numpty? My girlfriend wants to sell her candles at a place that is numpty in the extreme, and we need to explain the ingredients used. We use a combination of numpty-proof essential oils but a fair amount of synthetics as well. These are all at least cosmetic-grade, so I have no concerns about heir safety, just how do I explain it in numpty terms? I considered (briefly) using the fact that they are organic compounds to confuse them, but then thought it a little cheeky to deliberately use a term which in this case doesn't exactly mean what they would think it does...

Thanks

Ciao

Zak

[hugh_]

esters are ring based hydrocarbons similar to benzene - as used to increase the ron value of petrol. Esters generally have a fruity odour and are similar to that of pear etc etc.

Thats about all I can remember from a-level chemistry :s

[mybrainhurts]

zaktoo said:

just how do I explain it in numpty terms?

Look, you ttts, you don't need to know.....RIGHT?

[zaktoo]

mybrainhurts said:

zaktoo said: just how do I explain it in numpty terms? Look, you ttts, you don't need to know.....RIGHT?

Yeah, but, unfortunately these particular numpties happen to run a rather nice market that I'd love my gf to be able to sell at They need to "approve" the product. They'll probably blow a gasket at the merest hint of synthesised fragrances, despite happily driving to and from the market and selling food in synthetic containers... but of course the *candles* have to be made from genuine bird droppings and angel's farts or they're not gonna cut it Oh, they also used the evil electricity to power the PA that amplified the thoughtfully-provided bagpiper's squealing... If anything's environmentally unsound its the damn bagpipes man. Think of the children dammit.

Ciao

Zak

[mybrainhurts]

Holy smoke, that's more than worrying.....

Having given your predicament a great deal of thought, I think you're goig to have to......









































Lie your arse off...


hope that helps.........

[zaktoo]

mybrainhurts said:

Lie your arse off... hope that helps.........

Damn I can't - just not cut out to be a politician

Thanks anyhoo!

Ciao

Zak

[Pigeon]

hugh_ said:

esters are ring based hydrocarbons similar to benzene - as used to increase the ron value of petrol.

I think you're thinking of aromatics.

hugh_ said:

Esters generally have a fruity odour and are similar to that of pear etc etc.

Right on that one. Aromatics are called aromatics for hysterical raisins, not because they are generally pleasant smelling. Esters however often do smell pleasant and many common fruit smells are fairly simple esters, generally though not necessarily aliphatic.

An ester is the product of the reaction between an alcohol and a carboxylic acid, characterised by the grouping R1-C(=O)O-R2. Ted, can we have some forum codes for formatting molecular structures please? R1 and R2 may be aliphatic, alicyclic, or aromatic, or for that matter any more complex hydrocarbon structure if you like

Esters in motoring: For use of esters in oil, see Opieoilman's posts. For use of esters in fuel, see that utterly revolting strawberry diesel that Esso came out with. They do have some benefits in petrol for increasing octane and reducing emissions, but not as much as other chemicals which are less effort to produce. You may also find them in brake fluid IIRC, and in those foul smelly things people hang from their rear view mirror.

If the OP is determined to "do the right thing" it would be possible to point out that a synthetic odour chemical is produced to a much higher standard of purity than the natural product, which is extracted from the plant by a pretty unselective process and in addition to the desired constituent contains knows what else. You could also point out that a lot of natural plant oils are pretty nasty toxic shit and a little googling will find a selection of natural perfumes which it would be entertaining to get them to consume. However I fear that any attempt to use rational argument to demonstrate that "natural" does not necessarily mean "better" is doomed to failure and the "lie your arse off" solution is probably the most expedient option.

[markmullen]

zaktoo said:

mybrainhurts said: Lie your arse off... hope that helps......... Damn I can't - just not cut out to be a politician

Thats a shame, that was going to be my suggestion, tell the tree huggers your gear is made of recycled yoghurt and robert's a family relative, you've got a new marketplace.

[puggit]

The different between natural and synthetic is normally nothing in molecular structure - it's just the source.

For instance menthol or orange can be gathered from plants or made in the lab (I myself made both).

It's just an ethical question, fob them off

Puggit
BSc (Hons) Chemistry

[D_Mike]

Pigeon said:

hugh_ said: esters are ring based hydrocarbons similar to benzene - as used to increase the ron value of petrol. I think you're thinking of aromatics. hugh_ said: Esters generally have a fruity odour and are similar to that of pear etc etc. Right on that one. Aromatics are called aromatics for hysterical raisins, not because they are generally pleasant smelling. Esters however often do smell pleasant and many common fruit smells are fairly simple esters, generally though not necessarily aliphatic.

not sure about - toluene smells great!

nice post pigeon

just say that this is nothing inherently dangerous in synthesised chemicals if they are pure...

edited to add that there are other ways to make an ester! (don't ask me what they are, organic chemistry is just pot boiling witchcraft).

>> Edited by D_Mike on Wednesday 30th November 08:48

[medicineman]

Well at the end of the day there all ORGANIC aren't they? Tell them that I sure you'll sway them.

[zaktoo]

Thanks for all the help guys! I'll not lie my arse of per se, but just phrase it all very carefully ;-)

Cheers

Zak

[MilnerR]

I'm not an organic chemist but from looking at your ingredients I'd say the most toxic thing in your Gf's candles are the essential oils.. Then again anything that comes out of a plant is inherently safe as far as the non-science educated chattering classes are concerned

[dilbert]

What you need is one of those trick dog turds!

Just tell them that they can have crappy natural smells, or nice synthetic ones!

I'm not a salesman..... can you tell?

[Jinx]

I've got it.....

By using Sythesised aromatics you are saving the plants and trees they would have been made from... Respect the trees - respect them all [url] www.illwillpress.com/squirrelsongs.html [/url]

>> Edited by Jinx on Wednesday 30th November 13:18