An end to 'free' NHS treatment?
Discussion
In the papers today they are warning us about the NHS not being able to provide us with 'free' treatment and we may have to pay for for it soon....
I don't get it!
I can only assume this will mean we no longer would have to pay National Insurance, but i can't imagine the government missing an opportunity to charge us twice for the same damn thing
Lets face it, if you have to pay for an operation, you would just go private or leave the country rather than go the NHS route..wouldn't you?
I don't get it!
I can only assume this will mean we no longer would have to pay National Insurance, but i can't imagine the government missing an opportunity to charge us twice for the same damn thing
Lets face it, if you have to pay for an operation, you would just go private or leave the country rather than go the NHS route..wouldn't you?
hedders said:
In the papers today they are warning us about the NHS not being able to provide us with 'free' treatment and we may have to pay for for it soon....
I don't get it!
I can only assume this will mean we no longer would have to pay National Insurance, but i can't imagine the government missing an opportunity to charge us twice for the same damn thing
Lets face it, if you have to pay for an operation, you would just go private or leave the country rather than go the NHS route..wouldn't you?
This doesn't surprise me, I think it's been on the cards for a while, most of our NI goes to paying the vast salaries for all the "managers", auditors and other muppets who feast like parasites on the NHS and other public funded bodies, leaving the real working staff to struggle against the ever increasing odds.
Just my 2p worth.
and breathe
hedders said:
In the papers today they are warning us about the NHS not being able to provide us with 'free' treatment and we may have to pay for for it soon....
I don't get it!
I can only assume this will mean we no longer would have to pay National Insurance, but i can't imagine the government missing an opportunity to charge us twice for the same damn thing
Lets face it, if you have to pay for an operation, you would just go private or leave the country rather than go the NHS route..wouldn't you?
I don't think that's how the charges will manifest themselves. They will start charging for things like seeing your GP. You're probably right though, I am sure the govt will not miss a trick to charge twice. But, as I've said before, the NHS cannot continue as it is at the moment. Despite the money that has been put in, which has only served to start reversing the rot and decay caused by 20 years of underfunding and constant fiddling, the service is still not as good as it should be. It's overstretched and understaffed.
The NHS has suffered from years of bad government. The Tories who cut spending, hugely, hoping for the NHS to die quietly, and then fiddling with the management and structure of the NHS again and again, and now Labour, who have thrown money at the problem, but have continued to prop up bad management and continue to fiddle and change the financial and organisation structure of the NHS, so much so that policy cannot really be carried out, because organisational changes keep occuring. Labour have also embraced the target culture, all politically driven.
My feeling is that the NHS should be a non-government organisation, or at least cross pary run. It should NOT ever be allowed to be a political football to generate political targets for any incumbent government. It does also need to be a generator of income, rather than a big black hole of tax payers money. Having said that, we need to be careful about how people access this service.......
And of course unfortunately sometime money is the only way to get people to think how to use a service.
I rekon if we charged just £1 every time someone went to see the GP you'd, at a stroke, clear away people who'd come and say I have a toothache, or while I was shopping I thought I'd book in with you if my results were back. Errum no I'm sorry Mrs X results take at least three days and you only had your blood taken yesterday. Or the two or three patients a day who book appointment with me and don't bother to turn up.
I just don't think people would do this kind of thing if it was costing them money, any money.
Trouble is my idea of a token payment would be seen by the government as a green light to a two tier medical system.
I rekon if we charged just £1 every time someone went to see the GP you'd, at a stroke, clear away people who'd come and say I have a toothache, or while I was shopping I thought I'd book in with you if my results were back. Errum no I'm sorry Mrs X results take at least three days and you only had your blood taken yesterday. Or the two or three patients a day who book appointment with me and don't bother to turn up.
I just don't think people would do this kind of thing if it was costing them money, any money.
Trouble is my idea of a token payment would be seen by the government as a green light to a two tier medical system.
Julian64 said:
And of course unfortunately sometime money is the only way to get people to think how to use a service.
I rekon if we charged just £1 every time someone went to see the GP you'd, at a stroke, clear away people who'd come and say I have a toothache, or while I was shopping I thought I'd book in with you if my results were back.
Exactly
A service which is free at the point of use has virtually unlimited demand, hence rationing.
Sensible charges, at a level similar to NHS dentistry are the way forward.
968 said:
feeling is that the NHS should be a non-government organisation, or at least cross pary run. It should NOT ever be allowed to be a political football to generate political targets for any incumbent government.
It's an interesting point you make. In the past I have tried to think of the things that you would trust the government/ politicians to run responsibly.
Health.... as you say no.
Education certainly not, it should be independant from short term political meddling.
Defence... not judging by the previous track record.
Transport... no they are terrible meddlers and again do things as sops to self interested pressure groups and donors.
Actually it's hard to think of anything that the politicians are actaully any good at running at all.
So, effectively, I no longer have an NHS, no state pension that I have paid my bit for through work, having NEVER been on benefits, the police act more like the politcal gestapo,, just what the hell are my taxes and NI squandered on, its like I woke up one morning to find myself an enemy of the state!
chris watton said:
So, effectively, I no longer have an NHS, no state pension that I have paid my bit for through work, having NEVER been on benefits, the police act more like the politcal gestapo,, just what the hell are my taxes and NI squandered on, its like I woke up one morning to find myself an enemy of the state!
ooooh immigrants, managers of make believe departments - e.g. head of efficiency for £90k that was advertised for norfolk council recentely, £70 million on art for hospitals, billion on ict equipment for schools that half cant use, research into topics like how people in a coffee shop behave ( 250k i believe ), £200k on a trip for headteachers to america for a jolly, millions on over budgeted buildings like the scottish parliament.
oh yes and one v expensive war
all very worthwile
ahem
The political will to start charging for NHS services has to be weighed against the inevitable health inequalities it will create. Open charging will therefore not happen, as long as our politicians manage to keep a vestige of moral correctness.
However, the surreptitious mumblings about privatisation of medical services are the first flutters of a strom that will blow away the NHS in it's current form, and create a very real two-tier service, plus another 100,0000 managerial jobs. Make no mistake, the government will put out GP and hospital services for private tender, and allow private firms to begin operating in direct competition to NHS services. This gets the government off the hook by saying "We're targetting the poor with state funded, high quality NHS services" whilst the worried well middle classes, and all those who can take advantage of company BUPA schemes, will have private treatment whilst continuing to pay through the nose for NI contributions.
All the components are in place - it's just a matter of how to sugar-coat the message.
However, the surreptitious mumblings about privatisation of medical services are the first flutters of a strom that will blow away the NHS in it's current form, and create a very real two-tier service, plus another 100,0000 managerial jobs. Make no mistake, the government will put out GP and hospital services for private tender, and allow private firms to begin operating in direct competition to NHS services. This gets the government off the hook by saying "We're targetting the poor with state funded, high quality NHS services" whilst the worried well middle classes, and all those who can take advantage of company BUPA schemes, will have private treatment whilst continuing to pay through the nose for NI contributions.
All the components are in place - it's just a matter of how to sugar-coat the message.
Jaglover said:
maybe they should spend less money on art if finances are so bad...
I would far rather the government spent its money preserving what little is left of civilisation in this country than handing out another load of benefits to the work shy.
sos i meant art in hospitals ie:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4184104.stm
although 968 may be right if it doesnt come from tax payers although i bet i end up paying for it somehow!!
nubbin said:
The political will to start charging for NHS services has to be weighed against the inevitable health inequalities it will create. Open charging will therefore not happen, as long as our politicians manage to keep a vestige of moral correctness.
However, the surreptitious mumblings about privatisation of medical services are the first flutters of a strom that will blow away the NHS in it's current form, and create a very real two-tier service, plus another 100,0000 managerial jobs. Make no mistake, the government will put out GP and hospital services for private tender, and allow private firms to begin operating in direct competition to NHS services. This gets the government off the hook by saying "We're targetting the poor with state funded, high quality NHS services" whilst the worried well middle classes, and all those who can take advantage of company BUPA schemes, will have private treatment whilst continuing to pay through the nose for NI contributions.
All the components are in place - it's just a matter of how to sugar-coat the message.
To a degree, I agree with you, but in one sense I don't. The notion that people can't afford a nominal charge to see their GP is simply untrue. The same people who claim benefits are also the heaviest smokers, and how much does that cost per week to fund? If they can afford that, they can afford a £5 or £10 charge to see their GP once every few months. I would exempt pensioners, children, and people with chronic illnesses from this charge, but everyone else should pay. Julian is dead right, if you did this, his waiting room would empty, as all the spurious non-urgent GP attenders would be deterred.
The main point of the charge will not be to raise money but to deter frivolous use of the health service.
A £5 charge to see the GP will not be too much of a burden, and will simply be the same principle as NHS Dentistry.
As 968 said, we could exempt those with chronic illnesses and children.
A £5 charge to see the GP will not be too much of a burden, and will simply be the same principle as NHS Dentistry.
As 968 said, we could exempt those with chronic illnesses and children.
You guys have all missed the real reason they are doing this, if they start charging for NHS treatment this will mean more accountants, more auditors, more middle managers that all rely on that total joke that has become the government. Votes in the bag and nice low unemployment figures except it's the rest of us that are paying for all there jobs!
I say the whole public services need simplyfing hugely to remove this exact kind of problem, just like the dept that chases money from fathers that don't pay £12,000,000 cost to the tax payer and they only recover £8,000,000 In a business you'd be better of just paying them off. And whats more how can you make something like that complicated enough to cost £12,000,000 a year!
And relax...
I say the whole public services need simplyfing hugely to remove this exact kind of problem, just like the dept that chases money from fathers that don't pay £12,000,000 cost to the tax payer and they only recover £8,000,000 In a business you'd be better of just paying them off. And whats more how can you make something like that complicated enough to cost £12,000,000 a year!
And relax...
968 said:
The political will to start charging for NHS services has to be weighed against the inevitable health inequalities it will create. Open charging will therefore not happen, as long as our politicians manage to keep a vestige of moral correctness.
However, the surreptitious mumblings about privatisation of medical services are the first flutters of a strom that will blow away the NHS in it's current form, and create a very real two-tier service, plus another 100,0000 managerial jobs. Make no mistake, the government will put out GP and hospital services for private tender, and allow private firms to begin operating in direct competition to NHS services. This gets the government off the hook by saying "We're targetting the poor with state funded, high quality NHS services" whilst the worried well middle classes, and all those who can take advantage of company BUPA schemes, will have private treatment whilst continuing to pay through the nose for NI contributions.
All the components are in place - it's just a matter of how to sugar-coat the message.
To a degree, I agree with you, but in one sense I don't. The notion that people can't afford a nominal charge to see their GP is simply untrue. The same people who claim benefits are also the heaviest smokers, and how much does that cost per week to fund? If they can afford that, they can afford a £5 or £10 charge to see their GP once every few months. I would exempt pensioners, children, and people with chronic illnesses from this charge, but everyone else should pay. Julian is dead right, if you did this, his waiting room would empty, as all the spurious non-urgent GP attenders would be deterred.
But that's not privatisation - it's just gatekeeping.
I'm talking about a far more fundamental shake up of the entire system. I'd be quite happy to charge people for attending the surgery, and £30 for a home visit, but who will be hurt by this? If 60% of the population are exempt from prescription charges, then it's the same 60% who will not have to pay to see a doctor - and they are the ones who take up most of the medical time and costs.
angrys3owner said:
You guys have all missed the real reason they are doing this, if they start charging for NHS treatment this will mean more accountants, more auditors, more middle managers that all rely on that total joke that has become the government. Votes in the bag and nice low unemployment figures except it's the rest of us that are paying for all there jobs!
See my statement above - your point wasn't missed at all!
angrys3owner said:
You guys have all missed the real reason they are doing this, if they start charging for NHS treatment this will mean more accountants, more auditors,
Seems a good thing to me
I don't think a small charge everytime you visit a GP will add much to the administrative burden.
nubbin said:
But that's not privatisation - it's just gatekeeping.
I'm talking about a far more fundamental shake up of the entire system. I'd be quite happy to charge people for attending the surgery, and £30 for a home visit, but who will be hurt by this? If 60% of the population are exempt from prescription charges, then it's the same 60% who will not have to pay to see a doctor - and they are the ones who take up most of the medical time and costs.
If the NHS is privatised, it will stop the moaning from people about how poor the system is. It might dispel the myth that Privatisation is always a good thing. My feeling is not to privatise but to make the whole organisation apolitical. Politicians should not be involved in any way, ever, and all health policies last about 4 or 5 years, until another govnernment comes into office, or another health minister takes up the post and tries to impose his/her agendas on the organisation. Now we are subject to the whim of Hewitt, and already we have this nonsense about nurses/pharmacists given powers to prescribe almost unlimited.
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