Discussion
Shock news just in ... websites log who has visited them! 
Seriously, Google's run on advertising money, a not insignificant amount of it from providing stats on what people are looking at. They're one of many companies that do the same thing. Have you noticed the ad banners on here? Odds are that they're supplied by an advertising company that has banners on a number of different sites, and they'll be correlating the information they get from all of them - and they can track you individually, too.
Your credit card company will do similar things too - it will be keeping a track of what you're spending your money on and undoubtably selling that information to various marketing companies.
In order for you to get all of these fantastic services for free, they've got to be getting the money from somewhere..
Seriously, Google's run on advertising money, a not insignificant amount of it from providing stats on what people are looking at. They're one of many companies that do the same thing. Have you noticed the ad banners on here? Odds are that they're supplied by an advertising company that has banners on a number of different sites, and they'll be correlating the information they get from all of them - and they can track you individually, too.
Your credit card company will do similar things too - it will be keeping a track of what you're spending your money on and undoubtably selling that information to various marketing companies.
In order for you to get all of these fantastic services for free, they've got to be getting the money from somewhere..
los angeles said:
Yet another worrying intrusion of privacy.
Really? As commented already, ISP's, google and almost all websites keep a log of information about you and me. Anything to hide? Surely not...?
No, this is not something new and I seriously doubt that google keeps everything on everybody for ever... come on, get a grip. How many millions of searches are done each day? What, they index each and every search against *you* as an individual and keep a track of every single thing you do? Seriously doubtful. Google use relevance searches which are tracked on links (originally but somewhat developed these days). This is extremely quick, but relies on humans doing the linking (you link one site to another etc). Works well, but there is no mystery here.
As for logging stuff - they have IP address and thats about it. Well, maybe they might have your browser version and possibly OS version. But that I am afraid is it. Ok, so you might be on a fixed IP address, but the vast majority of users of the internet arent. That means you get one IP address one month and probably a different one next month. The ability to track that IP address to you as an individual is down to the ISP - they are the one who control the allocation of these address and therefore know where you entered the network and who you are. So can google track your search for say "TVR Sounds" to you at home on your PC? Nah, not on your nelly. In fact to do this requires a lot of time and effort and is not as simple as you might think..... again, we are into the realms of "big brother"..... yes its possible, but TV and the movies make it look simple - it isnt. Having worked with the likes of Freeserve (now Wanadoo) and Pipex, they track their users for their own protection more than anything else, but it aint no automated system and can take weeks to isollate a particular user / IP address / location.... BY HAND! Press a button and "big brother" knows exactly who you are and where you live? Nah, its all make believe...
Great sections of the IP address ranges are ISP allocated to the likes of you and me. It constantly changes and as I mentioned, you cannot guarantee who gets what address and when (unless you pay for a fixed IP address). That means the internet tracking companies cannot have any confidence in what they gather. Google is the same here - suppose they do track your searches for a month against your IP address. When that changes, how do they link your new one with the old one? Not as simple as it seems is it?
Collection of usage statistics is all well and good - but the majority of it is utterly meaningless. What you should be concerned about is your ISP's privacy policy as this is who you have a contract with and if they are dishing the "dirt" on you then you need to do something about it.
Finally, would you go to the library with *your* library card and start taking out kiddie porn books (if they did them!)? That would be a bit daft wouldnt it. Would you use your own PC to go trawling the 'net for kiddie porn? Again, that would be a bit daft wouldnt it...... As someone who has done investigative internet work before (its not as interesting as you might think, but great pub stories though) the media has it all wrong..... but then thats pretty obvious really. Websites with free access to kiddie porn? Not quite that simple I am afraid....
los angeles said:
...Google... It's unacceptable.
Simple solution - don't use it if you don't like it.
Note there is a big difference between data and information. Google will log lots and lots of data from individual searches and clickthroughs, but the information they will extract from it will be summary statistical information - they aren't interested in what an individual did.
Not the 1 billion searches done every day (disclaimer: statistic made up on the spot, but possibly not too far out...).
And if you don't like Google now, you really aren't going to like it over the next few years...
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051110.html
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051117.html
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051124.html
off_again said:
Collection of usage statistics is all well and good - but the majority of it is utterly meaningless. What you should be concerned about is your ISP's privacy policy as this is who you have a contract with and if they are dishing the "dirt" on you then you need to do something about it.
Size Nine Elm said:
...Google... It's unacceptable.
Simple solution - don't use it if you don't like it.
Note there is a big difference between data and information. Google will log lots and lots of data from individual searches and clickthroughs, but the information they will extract from it will be summary statistical information - they aren't interested in what an individual did.
Not the 1 billion searches done every day (disclaimer: statistic made up on the spot, but possibly not too far out...).
And if you don't like Google now, you really aren't going to like it over the next few years...
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051110.html
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051117.html
www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051124.html
Hey you lot if you haven't already read it, this is the likely future for your IT, Network, Security, Home Cinema and Home Automation all rolled into one. Entire Data-centres in shipping containers?
i Cringley of PBS said:
The probable answer lies in one of Google's underground parking garages in Mountain View. There, in a secret area off-limits even to regular GoogleFolk, is a shipping container. But it isn't just any shipping container. This shipping container is a prototype data center. Google hired a pair of very bright industrial designers to figure out how to cram the greatest number of CPUs, the most storage, memory and power support into a 20- or 40-foot box. We're talking about 5000 Opteron processors and 3.5 petabytes of disk storage that can be dropped-off overnight by a tractor-trailer rig. The idea is to plant one of these puppies anywhere Google owns access to fiber, basically turning the entire Internet into a giant processing and storage grid.
That was the most enlightening wake up call for one possible future of IT, that I have ever read. As a previous owner of a security company and then an IT company, it makes sense for a 'cable terminal' in everyhouse in which all other devices are connected. Long ago I guessed that all your services would be provided/controlled by the ISP, but who'd of thought that Google would be supplying company? Adds a whole new meaning to the term 'Googlebox'
Microsoft IS dwindling in that people are bored with buying a new PC or upgrading the software every year, and as stated ISP's and Telco's are struggling due to the competition and ever increasing bandwidth wars.
I wonder if the big longterm plan is for Google to build all the Data-centers and hardware and for Microsoft to build the Terminal software? That way there would be no need for desktop software at all
Google and Microsoft would manage your 'box' and all you would have to do is to fill it with crap 
deva link said:
they can follow the computer, they don't know who's sitting at the keyboard.
Very true, I just meant that tracking cookies would negate the apparent anonymity that comes from IP address changes, NAT etc. To work out which person the requests came from would be much harder, and I don't see how they would do that unless they were also able to pull down access histories from sites where you had authenticated yourself. Now, if Microsoft tried to do something similar then using their Passport system they could find out far more about you. Let's hope they don't go there.
Size Nine Elm said:Whilst this is true under normal circumstances I think it misses the point LA was making. Usually no-one is interested in the big pile of data. However, if the "authorities" want to pick on someone they can go through the data a long time after the event and compile the information they're looking for. Any argument that the innocent have nothing to fear should be treated with the utmost suspicion.
Note there is a big difference between data and information. Google will log lots and lots of data from individual searches and clickthroughs, but the information they will extract from it will be summary statistical information - they aren't interested in what an individual did.
Expressing that in PH terms, imagine the scenario (very close now) where every journey you make in your car is monitored for speed etc. Let's assume the authorities do not usually prosecute for speeding in minor cases and you have a clean licence. One day you are driving properly and within the speed limit but a child runs out in front of your car and is killed. A witness says "he must have been going too fast". You find yourself in court for killing the child and are explaining your careful driving on the day in question. Then PC Plod pulls out a statistical analysis of your driving habits over the last 5 years and the GPS info' shows you are a regular speeder on the road even though you haven't been nicked and also that you recently took your car on a track day. How will you defend against that? The court is likely to have you locked up for a good few years in no time flat.
redistributor said:
Note there is a big difference between data and information. Google will log lots and lots of data from individual searches and clickthroughs, but the information they will extract from it will be summary statistical information - they aren't interested in what an individual did.
Expressing that in PH terms, imagine the scenario (very close now) where every journey you make in your car is monitored for speed etc. Let's assume the authorities do not usually prosecute for speeding in minor cases and you have a clean licence. One day you are driving properly and within the speed limit but a child runs out in front of your car and is killed. A witness says "he must have been going too fast". You find yourself in court for killing the child and are explaining your careful driving on the day in question. Then PC Plod pulls out a statistical analysis of your driving habits over the last 5 years and the GPS info' shows you are a regular speeder on the road even though you haven't been nicked and also that you recently took your car on a track day. How will you defend against that? The court is likely to have you locked up for a good few years in no time flat.
True... what I meant was that Google's focus will be to retain information which helps them extract the statistics which help their business, not to retain information about individuals explicitly. Although if they do have enough about you from what they do retain then your scenario could occur. I guess TrafficMaster would be the equivalent - retaining info about vehicle movement for their business, but it could be used to track your movements for years and be demanded by 'authorities'...
ultimasimon said:
That was the most enlightening wake up call for one possible future of IT, that I have ever read. As a previous owner of a security company and then an IT company, it makes sense for a 'cable terminal' in everyhouse in which all other devices are connected. Long ago I guessed that all your services would be provided/controlled by the ISP, but who'd of thought that Google would be supplying company? Adds a whole new meaning to the term 'Googlebox'
Microsoft IS dwindling in that people are bored with buying a new PC or upgrading the software every year, and as stated ISP's and Telco's are struggling due to the competition and ever increasing bandwidth wars.
I wonder if the big longterm plan is for Google to build all the Data-centers and hardware and for Microsoft to build the Terminal software? That way there would be no need for desktop software at all
It will never be that way in my house. At the moment 3/4 boxes are running FreeBSD and I only keep one machine running Windows XP for software development and games.
Ok so this may happen to the average user but not us geeks!
Did you ever hear about Intel integrating 'spyware' into their CPU's (I cant find a link or the details nor can I really remmeber it but that was equally as dodgy a concept)
>> Edited by polus on Sunday 4th December 16:41
what about MAC address?
from the mad man at GRC.com
"GUID" stands for "Globally Unique IDentifier" and is a technology standard specified by the Open Software Foundation (OSF) to create unique and non-repeating "ID Tags". Such "ID Tags" are generated once then stored, typically in the Windows Registry.
If you're really curious, use the Windows "RegEdit" program to look under this key name: HKEY_CLASSES_ROOTCLSID and you'll see a billion GUID's (Don't change anything!)
In the past, the use of GUID's has aroused the wrath and concern of privacy advocates the world over, since they are like "serial numbers" which can be used to uniquely identify software users.
from the mad man at GRC.com
"GUID" stands for "Globally Unique IDentifier" and is a technology standard specified by the Open Software Foundation (OSF) to create unique and non-repeating "ID Tags". Such "ID Tags" are generated once then stored, typically in the Windows Registry.
If you're really curious, use the Windows "RegEdit" program to look under this key name: HKEY_CLASSES_ROOTCLSID and you'll see a billion GUID's (Don't change anything!)
In the past, the use of GUID's has aroused the wrath and concern of privacy advocates the world over, since they are like "serial numbers" which can be used to uniquely identify software users.
los angeles said:
deva link said:Are you suggesting we are giving our password to anyone who wants to use our computer? Surely if you use Google through your e-mail server you have registered your Internet name?
Nope - they can follow the computer, they don't know who's sitting at the keyboard.
In a household, or some other kind of shared dwelling, anybody could use your computer. I'm not saying that *you* allow this, but it's a defence. You don't have to log on, just to do a Google search.
los angeles said:
If I use my local library without taking out a book or books on loan, no one, in theory (security cameras aside) registers when I visited or what books I read, or where I slept and for how long. Personally, I never understood Google was logging my use of their site or storing permanently the data or information I read. I thought I had total anonimity when using Google.
Just wait until your ID card has an RF ID chip in it - "they" will know exactly where you've been.
>> Edited by deva link on Sunday 4th December 17:46
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