Serious question about mental illness
Discussion
I have an employee who's going through a very rough time (divorce, debts and other stuff). I knew things were tough, but I've since discovered that they are close to suicide and are delusional. This is unchartered territory for me. I've never employed someone with such a condition before so I have a few questions:
1. As an employer, can I do anything practical to help?
2. Do people generally make a full recovery from such a condition?
3. What length of time does it generally take to make a full recovery - assuming they're getting appropriate counselling and medication?
4. Is there any merit in offering to pay for private counselling, or is the NHS pretty good in this area?
If anyone has any opinions regarding any of the above, I'd be interested in feedback.
1. As an employer, can I do anything practical to help?
2. Do people generally make a full recovery from such a condition?
3. What length of time does it generally take to make a full recovery - assuming they're getting appropriate counselling and medication?
4. Is there any merit in offering to pay for private counselling, or is the NHS pretty good in this area?
If anyone has any opinions regarding any of the above, I'd be interested in feedback.
1. As an employer, can I do anything practical to help?
Bucketloads, but do you want to as it's thin ice territory.
The big problem is laying yourself open corporate wise.
Been there done that but at least had the backup of MOD (OK service medics) but the most important thing was the problem was "open" to management (who knew how to and were trusted to keep mouths shut) but dealt with "in confidence"to retain subjects dignity.
It ain't easy. You have to make a judgement call.
MoJo.
Bucketloads, but do you want to as it's thin ice territory.
The big problem is laying yourself open corporate wise.
Been there done that but at least had the backup of MOD (OK service medics) but the most important thing was the problem was "open" to management (who knew how to and were trusted to keep mouths shut) but dealt with "in confidence"to retain subjects dignity.
It ain't easy. You have to make a judgement call.
MoJo.
Srebbe
I don't know where you are in the country but S Hants has excellent NHS Mental Health Care provision.
A lot also depends on getting an appropriate referral from a GP.
All you can do as an employer is what you are doing now, empathise and offer assistance/encouragement to seek professional help.
IME (close family member) people can be fully functional again fairly quickly, but relapses do happen.
You seem to be a good man to work for.
I don't know where you are in the country but S Hants has excellent NHS Mental Health Care provision.
A lot also depends on getting an appropriate referral from a GP.
All you can do as an employer is what you are doing now, empathise and offer assistance/encouragement to seek professional help.
IME (close family member) people can be fully functional again fairly quickly, but relapses do happen.
You seem to be a good man to work for.
IME people can be fully functional again fairly quickly, but relapses do happen.
To be blunt (sorry DJ et all I'm not really heartless)if the trigger is work related then it will arise again. Speaking from very hard earned experience (Like taking on Dundee balifs first hand after they'd been called in by the current "problem"
a total change of life experience does work wonders (my subject left the service and is an outstanding member of HM coastguards cliff/inshore rescue to this day. It's just that some things (nasty) the person had seen in his duties (work) accumulated up to breaking point.
MoJo
To be blunt (sorry DJ et all I'm not really heartless)if the trigger is work related then it will arise again. Speaking from very hard earned experience (Like taking on Dundee balifs first hand after they'd been called in by the current "problem"
a total change of life experience does work wonders (my subject left the service and is an outstanding member of HM coastguards cliff/inshore rescue to this day. It's just that some things (nasty) the person had seen in his duties (work) accumulated up to breaking point. MoJo
Just don't pull them aside and grill them on it...You sound like a lovely person so I'd just do what you feel is right. Let it be known to the WHOLE office (ie so it doesn't look like you're picking one person out) that you are nice and approachable and mebbe do something like bring in cookies or something for everyone to have in their breaks - just to reaffirm the nice caring image. Then if the person is really in need of help they'll be assured that you are a genuine bloke who'll do anything to help (but not to be walked over obviously)
People do get better, but more often than not they need love, attention and a helping hand (no kicks up backsides) and to know they can trust the people around them
Hope it helps.
People do get better, but more often than not they need love, attention and a helping hand (no kicks up backsides) and to know they can trust the people around them
Hope it helps.
Much as any director will hate to hear it, the best help you can give is financial. Make sure there's no huge pressure for them to get back to work, but let them know that there's still a place for them and you won't be taking major steps to replace them.
Best to have them take longer to recover properly than rush back with problems.
Best to have them take longer to recover properly than rush back with problems.
mojocvh said:
IME people can be fully functional again fairly quickly, but relapses do happen.
To be blunt (sorry DJ et all I'm not really heartless)if the trigger is work related then it will arise again. Speaking from very hard earned experience (Like taking on Dundee balifs first hand after they'd been called in by the current "problem"
MoJo
Doesn't sound heartless at all MoJo, just 'to the point'.
Having seen mental illness within my family and other friends I’d say it really depends on the type of illness, if it is depression caused by the current situation they have found themselves in which looking at it seems likely the best thing you can do it stand by them as a friend as well as a employer. If it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the body then could be a longer process and mean continuous medication in the future for them but still very possible to lead a normal life once back on track.
Are they still working at the moment?
Time scale for recovery would probably vary from person to person.
I’d recommend finding out if they are seeing someone for counselling or are just seeing the local GP, if under the GP it would be worth trying to help them into getting proper counselling.
Are they still working at the moment?
Time scale for recovery would probably vary from person to person.
I’d recommend finding out if they are seeing someone for counselling or are just seeing the local GP, if under the GP it would be worth trying to help them into getting proper counselling.
I probably didn't post enough info, but the person concerned has been admitted to an appropriate hospital - probably for several weeks. Before this, we'd told the person to have compassionate leave until the new year. They know their job is safe, we've made that clear. Personally, I'm a little out of my depth as to what to do in the medium term. At the moment, I'm asking myself this question: "if the person were one of my kids, how would I want their boss to react?"
srebbe64 said:
I probably didn't post enough info, but the person concerned has been admitted to an appropriate hospital - probably for several weeks. Before this, we'd told the person to have compassionate leave until the new year. They know their job is safe, we've made that clear. Personally, I'm a little out of my depth as to what to do in the medium term. At the moment, I'm asking myself this question: "if the person were one of my kids, how would I want their boss to react?"
I have gone out on a limb for my staff when they have problems, the only trouble is that it may sound heartless but they are only working for you, they are not your family and as I have found over the years they will jump ship if it is right for them at the time.
I know this sounds harsh but you can do too much and they will sh@t on you.
Might sound nasty but I have been employing people for the last 25 years and still have some original staff working for me 18 years later.
Take it a day/week at a time and do not get pulled in too heavy, you are not their father you are their boss.
Drifting
drifting said:
Take it a day/week at a time and do not get pulled in too heavy, you are not their father you are their boss.
Wise words.
I've been here before as an employer and FWIW blurring the boundary of a contract (ie you do X, I pay Y) by supporting at your discretion backfires when your generosity becomes assumed as part of the contract, or a 'right'.
It isn't: they have a paid holiday allowance, a paid sick allowance and Statutory Sick Pay when the former two run out. While being sympathetic, don't lose sight of the fact it's their responsibility to take care of their health. Also be mindful of the impact on colleagues "watching the precedent" - this can result in resentment or others trying it on. In other words, be very careful you don't make a rod for your own back. Be firm but fair. You're running a business, not a charity.
srebbe64 said:
I have an employee who's going through a very rough time (divorce, debts and other stuff). I knew things were tough, but I've since discovered that they are close to suicide and are delusional. This is unchartered territory for me. I've never employed someone with such a condition before so I have a few questions:
1. As an employer, can I do anything practical to help?
2. Do people generally make a full recovery from such a condition?
3. What length of time does it generally take to make a full recovery - assuming they're getting appropriate counselling and medication?
4. Is there any merit in offering to pay for private counselling, or is the NHS pretty good in this area?
If anyone has any opinions regarding any of the above, I'd be interested in feedback.
For what its worth and ime no proffesional at this,but ive been through this and seen it ,so i guess you could say i have some experience.
My mother was mentally ill for around a decade,totally suicidal,and from the age of around 6-8 i spent my time supporting her.
She spent many a 6 week spell in the menders and received electric shock treatment on a few occasions..it tore the family apart and disrupted everyone involved ,then one day she got on with life and pulled through it.
That was a mental illness.
Depression as i see it sometimes is when your life goes tits up and all of a sudden you find yourself in a corner,it sounds a bit like what this guy is going through.
First off you have got to establish if this is an ongoing thing and a pattern of his life,is he always being a victim?,in which case he will need proffesional help right from the off,and no matter what you do now ,unless he gets proffesional help this will re-occur.
If its not normal for him to be like this and he is of a stable personality normally,you can be of great help to him by putting things into perspective for him ,or atleast showing him.
The pain he is feeling at the moment is from the "break up" and his suicidal tendancies are probably trying to tell him that the only way of stopping the pain is to end it all.
But he is wrong,the pain he is feeling that releases the adrenalin to "Fight or Flight" and causes him not to eat or sleep(normal symptoms) are not a physical danger to him,like say a lion is about to attack him....therefore he is not really in danger and time will ease his pain of a relationship split,in time he will be ok again.
He needs to know this is just a chapter of his life and although it is a bad one,there are all the possibilities of a goodun around the corner.
As for his Debt,i look at debt as not only the amount but also the "time taken" to pay it back,if its small debt its going to be a sprint,if its large debt then its going to be a marathon....he might benefit from your business sense to help him here,but he needs enough money free each week to go out and enjoy himself once again.
Like i say ime no proffesional but ive been there a couple of times and these ways have made me a stronger more positive person,life is full of chapters,some good,some bad.
I've worked with three people who had "issues"
1)A guy who looked progressively more and more scruffy and became, erm, smelly. One day he came in looking like a tramp and the sweat stains were down to his waist. This stopped but then he started to worry about "little people" who hid behind cabinets or in the branches of trees. Sometimes they peeked out at him from behind the windows on a computer screen. Then he arrived in the afternoon, said good morning to the new manager and proceeded to hide from the russian spies under the new managers desk while proposing marriage to the secretary.
He left and never recovered fully.
2)A trainee who became increasingly embarrasing and lazy. He would do absolutely nothing. He was almost in a trance like state. At important meetings he would ask senior staff questions like "Have our customers got a plan in case we go bust?" or offer everyone peppermints half way through a presentation.
One day I rang up the trainee chap in HR and asked if, perhaps, he needed to go home and see a doctor. Sorted.
Until he came back and developed a tendency to slyly caress a female colleagues hair. What finally finished him was his end of year results which were truly abyismal. He left before he was pushed.
3) A transexual who came in and announced that he wanted to change sex. He did this. Shortly afterwards he left having been offered early retirement. He/she was actually OK to work with and remained capable though obviously it is a bit bizzare to work with someone who changes sex. Some people did react very strongly to this and some work relations were a bit tricky.
The conclusion is that these issues often take a long time to go away. You may not be able to wait that long. If the chap in question is usefull then it may be viable to support him through this but don't expect a quick fix just because you are nice to him for a few weeks. It takes a long time for things to mount up to a crisis point, it probably take a while for them to disipate.
1)A guy who looked progressively more and more scruffy and became, erm, smelly. One day he came in looking like a tramp and the sweat stains were down to his waist. This stopped but then he started to worry about "little people" who hid behind cabinets or in the branches of trees. Sometimes they peeked out at him from behind the windows on a computer screen. Then he arrived in the afternoon, said good morning to the new manager and proceeded to hide from the russian spies under the new managers desk while proposing marriage to the secretary.
He left and never recovered fully.
2)A trainee who became increasingly embarrasing and lazy. He would do absolutely nothing. He was almost in a trance like state. At important meetings he would ask senior staff questions like "Have our customers got a plan in case we go bust?" or offer everyone peppermints half way through a presentation.
One day I rang up the trainee chap in HR and asked if, perhaps, he needed to go home and see a doctor. Sorted.
Until he came back and developed a tendency to slyly caress a female colleagues hair. What finally finished him was his end of year results which were truly abyismal. He left before he was pushed.
3) A transexual who came in and announced that he wanted to change sex. He did this. Shortly afterwards he left having been offered early retirement. He/she was actually OK to work with and remained capable though obviously it is a bit bizzare to work with someone who changes sex. Some people did react very strongly to this and some work relations were a bit tricky.
The conclusion is that these issues often take a long time to go away. You may not be able to wait that long. If the chap in question is usefull then it may be viable to support him through this but don't expect a quick fix just because you are nice to him for a few weeks. It takes a long time for things to mount up to a crisis point, it probably take a while for them to disipate.
Jeez, doing nothing is worst thing you can do. I suppose they need someone to listen to, either a professional or informed friend, parents perhaps?
My present woman went through a messy divorce (ongoing) and she's really been right up to the edge and past it, trying to stop her from "falling off" is bloody difficult. I'm not sure that a professional is the way forward, they have to agree to that. You can't force someone to fix themselves. As an employer, I would say "I understand what's going on, if you need a set of ears, I'll do my best, I suggest you perhaps take a bit of time off to just get away for a few days", let's face it, he's probably not much use with a messed up mind. Not a situation that I'd want to revisit, I had depression for several years and it is the most hideous thing that can happen to a person, that's why some people think killing themselves is a better option.
It will eventually be alright though. It's a mere lump in the grand scheme of things. I suppose there's only a certain amount of things/advice that people can give, what it comes down to is a form of natural selection with an ability to cope.
My present woman went through a messy divorce (ongoing) and she's really been right up to the edge and past it, trying to stop her from "falling off" is bloody difficult. I'm not sure that a professional is the way forward, they have to agree to that. You can't force someone to fix themselves. As an employer, I would say "I understand what's going on, if you need a set of ears, I'll do my best, I suggest you perhaps take a bit of time off to just get away for a few days", let's face it, he's probably not much use with a messed up mind. Not a situation that I'd want to revisit, I had depression for several years and it is the most hideous thing that can happen to a person, that's why some people think killing themselves is a better option.
It will eventually be alright though. It's a mere lump in the grand scheme of things. I suppose there's only a certain amount of things/advice that people can give, what it comes down to is a form of natural selection with an ability to cope.
srebbe64 said:
I have an employee who's going through a very rough time (divorce, debts and other stuff). I knew things were tough, but I've since discovered that they are close to suicide and are delusional. This is unchartered territory for me. I've never employed someone with such a condition before so I have a few questions:
1. As an employer, can I do anything practical to help?
as you've already done, let this person know their job is safe and there is no need to rush back. However it may be that being at work and geting back into some form of routine helps to take their mind of things and stops them from brooding or fixating on their problems. Perhaps if they think it would be beneficial they could come back with less responsibility in the short term, just to try and give them purpose ?.
srebbe64 said:
I have an employee who's going through a very rough time (divorce, debts and other stuff). I knew things were tough, but I've since discovered that they are close to suicide and are delusional. This is unchartered territory for me. I've never employed someone with such a condition before so I have a few questions:
Srebbe - we've seen your posts often enough to know you aren't about to jump in and do anything stupid, so I suspect you don't have too much to worry about. It's good that you appreciate that this is something they have no control over, and you've offered pretty much all you can as a business, giving them time off and keeping the job open for them.
I'd agree with some posters that you have to beware of creating a false 'social contract' with this person and in some way becoming responsible for their recovery. Recovery can be quick and total, or can be slow with many set-backs. Worse still, they may not recover. You have showed them understanding, and I'm sure you'll continue to do so - but it will probably benefit you both to be clear on the separation between your personal compassion, and the actions that your business can reasonably do to help their situation.
You could consider giving them a way to keep their hand in with the business, or ease their way back with part time or working from home. That might suit them better than sitting around doing nothing waiting to feel better. Alternatively it might make them feel under pressure to work, so it's something you would have to offer as a free choice.
Good luck - mental illness can be very disturbing, and emotionally exhausting to deal with.
Edited to add:
If you think this person is of sufficiently diminished capacity that they cannot identify and use a suitable professional to help their recovery, you personally may want to talk to NHS direct or your own GP to find out what can be done. Check that they are continuing to take and follow advice from their own GP. They may be put on tablets, but the most useful support in the medium term is talking to a trained mental health professional on a regular basis.
There are lots of advice for dealing with depression - maintaining a good diet, exercising and social contact can all help to some extent and don't require a prescription. But at the end of the day, if someone is severely depressed they must see a professional immediately and follow that up with accepting all of the support that the medical services can offer. Many victims of mental health issues can find it difficult to follow through, either through shame that they are ill, or because they feel the first sign of improvement is enough to stop.
>> Edited by Tuna on Wednesday 14th December 13:38
srebbe64 said:
I probably didn't post enough info, but the person concerned has been admitted to an appropriate hospital - probably for several weeks. Before this, we'd told the person to have compassionate leave until the new year. They know their job is safe, we've made that clear. Personally, I'm a little out of my depth as to what to do in the medium term. At the moment, I'm asking myself this question: "if the person were one of my kids, how would I want their boss to react?"
I'm glad to see the person in the hands of the professionals- that is THE MOST important thing.
A close relative of mine suffered depression for no apparent reason (good life, job & familly etc) and also started to increasingly bizzare behavior. But they wouldn't seek medical help despite our pleas. The next thing they were caught trying to end it all (thankfully didn't succeed)and they were Sectioned to hospital. They were diagnosed with chemical imbalance and after 8 weeks of drug treatment were released from hospital. Drug treatment continues two years later but they have been 'normal' to all intents and purposes since coming out of hospital.
If your employee has this type of depression then treatment is normally quite successful- but may take 2-3 months.
Many thanks for all your contributions. Astonishingly no frivolous posts - which is a tribute to the PH collective sensitivity in itself!
I've decided to give the person six months of full support and encouragement and then review the situation. Clearly there are no 'quick fixes'. The very fact that this is a first for me indicates that I've been very fortunate thus far. As such, it would be prudent to invest plenty of patience as recognition of my good luck so far. It is a perspective I'd not considered before.
Once again, thanks for all the objective advice.
I've decided to give the person six months of full support and encouragement and then review the situation. Clearly there are no 'quick fixes'. The very fact that this is a first for me indicates that I've been very fortunate thus far. As such, it would be prudent to invest plenty of patience as recognition of my good luck so far. It is a perspective I'd not considered before.
Once again, thanks for all the objective advice.
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