"Critics condemn EU deal 'failure' "

[polus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4538292.stm

So after reading and watching, it doesn’t seem all that fair. One point I would like someone to explain is by giving money to poor countries in the EU how does this generate money for the UK in the future. Is he saying when the economy grows stronger they will put more money in the EU pot therefore more money for everyone because that doesn’t seem to make sense to me considering that it will take a long time before that happens (and probably wownt flow in our direction anyway) and that every time industry globalises, more and more sectors are shipped off elsewhere Obviously I understand that some poor countries could do with a helping hand but have lost faith in the full amounts of money targeting the needy areas (if that makes sense).

I know this can be blamed on myself (and others like me) but I’m not exactly an oracle of knowledge in the world of politics, all I see is at ground level: criminal injustices, the NHS struggling, penny pinching in the form of a million and one stealth taxes. Obviously I read and follow what I can of politics and TRY to ignore the tabloid red herrings but can someone explain this rebate issue a little more so that maybe I have a more informed understanding?

Discuss and Inform !

>> Edited by polus on Saturday 17th December 19:22

[turbobloke]

At least you know when a eurocrat is lying - their lips move

[polus]

[simpo two]

One thing I've concluded with age is: 'If someone's decision doesn't make sense to you, it's because they know something you don't'. Clearly some other factor is at play.

I was at my mother's house (84, dementia, 2 strokes, housebound, can't shop or cook for herself) today when the carer came in to make tea for her. In OCTOBER Social Services had been asked to send a social worker in to assess for Meals on Wheels but she was still in the queue, and so can't have a hot lunch delivered. It's not that it's a freebie either, she has to pay for it.

So we can't even look after our own people properly, yet give £1 billion to keep the Poles happy?

>> Edited by simpo two on Saturday 17th December 21:33

[polus]

It seems to me (bare with me) that Mr Blair and his bunch of merry men are getting visions of global grandeur. The way he was speaking was as if the UK was responsible to look after all the poorer nations and that it is on his shoulders. Maybe this is what he wants to be remembered by, maybe he’s looking for a new job in the EU - I don’t know. Now this is a nice concept but as many people are saying its supposed to be a democracy and if the majority of people of this country want that then fair enough but if they don’t then he needs to be tougher with letting the money go. When asked it doesn’t seem to phase him that the majority of voters are not impressed with his lack of will power and to be honest he should have a better excuse then “well it’s a compromise” especially when it seems like anything but. He also mentioned something about it needing to be decided quickly but he didn’t explain enough to understand why.

[simpo two]

polus said:

It seems to me (bare with me) that Mr Blair and his bunch of merry men are getting visions of global grandeur. The way he was speaking was as if the UK was responsible to look after all the poorer nations and that it is on his shoulders.

Agreed. I don't remember Gordon Brown asking me for the OK before he went on his chequebook-friendship spree of Africa - with OUR money.

[nel]

Enlargement of Europe is in Britain's interests. We are rampant capitalists and an expanded Europe is good news for us as it will present investment opportunities in economies that can but grow given where they're starting from. Don't forget that we are the most active European venture capitalists.

For this reason the British have always pushed for enlargement, recently against the true wishes of the continental European. It was our very own Tone who made sure that Turkey got a date for starting the entry process.

Having said all that, this does not necessarily mean that we have to build a Federal State of Europe - the political union is secondary to the money men, who are pre-occupied above all by market access. Hence what we voted in '72, the Common Market, was a good thing for us. The rest of the bullshit that has been added on by the eurocrats enacting their wet dreams is just bad news in my opinion.

[polus]

nel said:

Enlargement of Europe is in Britain's interests. We are rampant capitalists and an expanded Europe is good news for us as it will present investment opportunities in economies that can but grow given where they're starting from. Don't forget that we are the most active European venture capitalists. For this reason the British have always pushed for enlargement, recently against the true wishes of the continental European. It was our very own Tone who made sure that Turkey got a date for starting the entry process. Having said all that, this does not necessarily mean that we have to build a Federal State of Europe - the political union is secondary to the money men, who are pre-occupied above all by market access. Hence what we voted in '72, the Common Market, was a good thing for us. The rest of the bullshit that has been added on by the eurocrats enacting their wet dreams is just bad news in my opinion.

Ahhhhh, yes that makes sense.

Obviously brilliant for those in that industry but it isn’t the best for jobs in this country.

Anyway I’ve seen too many programs in poor countries fail leading to massive losses to believe that its all rosy (I’m not saying you said that).


>> Edited by polus on Sunday 18th December 02:13

[dilbert]

nel said:

Enlargement of Europe is in Britain's interests. We are rampant capitalists and an expanded Europe is good news for us as it will present investment opportunities in economies that can but grow given where they're starting from. Don't forget that we are the most active European venture capitalists. For this reason the British have always pushed for enlargement, recently against the true wishes of the continental European. It was our very own Tone who made sure that Turkey got a date for starting the entry process. Having said all that, this does not necessarily mean that we have to build a Federal State of Europe - the political union is secondary to the money men, who are pre-occupied above all by market access. Hence what we voted in '72, the Common Market, was a good thing for us. The rest of the bullshit that has been added on by the eurocrats enacting their wet dreams is just bad news in my opinion.

I guess that all depends on who you are though.

If you're a venture capitalist it's great. If you're a bit more humble, but still right wing, it's an ultimate shitter. Essentially our rich exploit the emergent eastern european economies, to the detriment of inward investment.

Our rich get richer, by compromising our own competitiveness. These ideas are fine all the time there is an emergent economy to invest in. When we've eaten our own roots, we'll be looking to those currently emergent countries, for the cash to bring us up to par.

I'm no saying that foreign investment is all bad, but I already have a rich getting richer feeling about this country, and whilst I have no problem with the "rich", I still cant believe that a socialist government has eaten up home trade, and is about to eat up foreign trade too.

To my mind, and in a political sense this whole wierdness, of the billion squids that's going to the EU, is compensation. It's compensation for the rich in this country raping an emergent eastern europe. They wouldn't let us get away with anything else.

Perhaps that's the part of the picture thats missing here!

>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 18th December 02:26

Further edited to add;

It's also pretty annoying that it's the working classes that have to pay the EU bill, and the upper classes that benefit from the exploitation of Eastern europe.

It's like TB goes to europe and says;

"Yeah, I know we're going to screw East Germany, Croatia, Poland and so on, but come on, it's allright, our working classes are so dumb, that they'll all kill themselves to make up for it. How much did you say you wanted them to pay? A billion pounds? I'll just get their cheque book!"

Personally, I'm happy to keep claiming the dole.

Further edited to add;

I'm quite happy to be shown as wrong, but suddenly this all appears in sharp relief!



>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 18th December 02:39

[ATG]

I've forgotten what fraction of the UK economy comes from foreign trade but it is around the 30% level and about half of that is with the European union. Anything that creates economic growth within our trading partners' borders will benefit the UK and create wealth and jobs here as our foreign trade increases. The new EU members have pretty good standards of governance. It is reasonable to assume that EU grants will be used fairly effectively as they were, for example, in Ireland. The new members on the whole are anti-federalist, in favour of economic reform and atlanticist ... i.e. our natural allies. Bunging them a few quid to keep them on side is well worth it if they can be encouraged to help control the protectionism that eminates from certain areas due south of Blighty.

[8Pack]

Dilbert mate, you know how I think, ....google for the American Philanthropist Andrew Carnegie (although born in Scotland) Read what he thought about inhereted wealth...in his book..."The Gospel of Wealth".........

[dilbert]

8Pack said:

Dilbert mate, you know how I think, ....google for the American Philanthropist Andrew Carnegie (although born in Scotland) Read what he thought about inhereted wealth...in his book..."The Gospel of Wealth".........

I'd not heard of him before, but now I've looked, he sounds like the sort of guy I could aspire to be. The only trouble is that I don't have his wealth.

I've spoken before here about an age of industrialists, where the workforce was properly looked after. It wasn't all like that, I know, but hey you gotta have hope!

Edited to add;

I just realised that this is Andrew Carnegie of the Carnegie Institute. I knew about their Scientific research, but not about the history of it's founder. It's funny how knowledge happens in avalanches!



>> Edited by dilbert on Sunday 18th December 04:59

[8Pack]

Thanks Dilbert, hope all's well with you BTW. Yes, I think a great deal of what he said is true. The "rich" shall I say, become lazy and the inventive poor become disconnected from the process... eventually the nation suffers!....I think that's a good lesson It's important to keep the "skilled" in our society part of the MMMmmh! (I don't like this word) "elite" to carry on the knowledge and train others. I fear that this: is what we have lost, nay: "thrown away".

Political beliefs aside.........I believe we are poorer for the loss of our manual and technical skills that the last quarter century have lost us. Many skilled engineers have retired, died, without passing on their skills to others.......Apprentices have no industries to go to.

I can speak only for my own area of the NW, where: "If you wanted something making, we would make it for you"...........not so now I'm afaid it's all gone!...

Ah well, Cheers anyway Dibert, let's hope that Blighty pulls through!......

[dilbert]

8Pack said:

Thanks Dilbert, hope all's well with you BTW. Yes, I think a great deal of what he said is true. The "rich" shall I say, become lazy and the inventive poor become disconnected from the process... eventually the nation suffers!....I think that's a good lesson It's important to keep the "skilled" in our society part of the MMMmmh! (I don't like this word) "elite" to carry on the knowledge and train others. I fear that this: is what we have lost, nay: "thrown away". Political beliefs aside.........I believe we are poorer for the loss of our manual and technical skills that the last quarter century have lost us. Many skilled engineers have retired, died, without passing on their skills to others.......Apprentices have no industries to go to. I can speak only for my own area of the NW, where: "If you wanted something making, we would make it for you"...........not so now I'm afaid it's all gone!... Ah well, Cheers anyway Dibert, let's hope that Blighty pulls through!......

We'll I don't know about you, but they do say, "out of the ashes", funnily enough that's my surname! We can only live in hope! It is a big shame about out industrial heritage, or rather that, that's all it is.

[hammerwerfer]

The Irish are laughing. Booming economy and still net recipients, probably of more money per head than anyone else in Europe!

Looks to stay that way to the next 6 years or so.

[turbobloke]

hammerwerfer said:

The Irish are laughing. Booming economy and still net recipients, probably of more money per head than anyone else in Europe! Looks to stay that way to the next 6 years or so.

And in the right places - there are many - it's a great place to live too. If only it had a far east climate. As to anything more regarding the Federated Eclectic Socialist Totalitarian European Ripoff Union, enough said.

[tallbloke]

ATG said:

I've forgotten what fraction of the UK economy comes from foreign trade but it is around the 30% level and about half of that is with the European union. Anything that creates economic growth within our trading partners' borders will benefit the UK and create wealth and jobs here as our foreign trade increases. The new EU members have pretty good standards of governance. It is reasonable to assume that EU grants will be used fairly effectively as they were, for example, in Ireland. The new members on the whole are anti-federalist, in favour of economic reform and atlanticist ... i.e. our natural allies. Bunging them a few quid to keep them on side is well worth it if they can be encouraged to help control the protectionism that eminates from certain areas due south of Blighty.

Sounds about right, but what was that stuff the other week about Tony aparently giving with one hand and taking away with the other. The Eastern european countries would get a handout now but have to accept less development money than they were hoping for later or something? Was it that Tony was trying to hold down the overall growth of the E.U. Budget. If so, it seems to me that the anti-Blairs around here should be grateful as they are largely ant E.U. as well. Thatcherite isolationist Up-Yours Delors mentality isn't going to get us far these days anyway.

[turbobloke]

tallbloke said:

Thatcherite isolationist Up-Yours Delors mentality isn't going to get us far these days anyway.

Except well out of the corrupt, incompetent and largely political modern EU. I remember the doomsayers whining about how our economy would suffer if we left the ERM, then when we were bumped out by Soros, wahay we never had it so good, money lost from the Bank was being made up quickly as the economy flourished. Gordon Brown has had much to say since.
Same principle applies to the fg EU, which has moved from being a common market to become "the most stupid, immoral state-subsidised policy in human history, give or take communism". Thank you for that, Mr Ambassador Sir. The idea that we can't survive without paying French farmers for burning sheep in Paris is ludicrous, it will only take one exit strategy and bingo the entire house of cards will be down, Italy might yet be the saving of us

[tallbloke]

Remember what happened the last time the European house of cards came down? A more united front might not be such a bad thing. Unless you're so blase that you believe such a thing 'could never happen again'? If Tony has got talks about talks about talks about the farm subidies on the table it is at least a stumble forward. The great European enterprise is about more than individual national interests, and leaving the eastern states out in the cold just after they escaped the orbit of Soviet domination is not the way to better international relations.

What do you see in terms of the European future beyond an 'exit strategy'?

[sadoksevoli]

tallbloke said:

Remember what happened the last time the European house of cards came down? A more united front might not be such a bad thing. Unless you're so blase that you believe such a thing 'could never happen again'? If Tony has got talks about talks about talks about the farm subidies on the table it is at least a stumble forward. The great European enterprise is about more than individual national interests, and leaving the eastern states out in the cold just after they escaped the orbit of Soviet domination is not the way to better international relations. What do you see in terms of the European future beyond an 'exit strategy'?

While I thoroughly agree that the Eastern European countries shoudl get a slcie of the pie to help them along, the EU has become an expensive farce - the only thing that is united in Europe are the French over their God-given right to agricultural subsidies and the Bruseels' Eurocrats on their God-given right to comfortable lifestyles, generous pensions, endless perks and poor accountinh practices. The "House of Cards" you speak of is nobetter improved by the existence of the EU - in fact the EU's rigidity and the flawed social model it is currently trying to push upon us all are the exact concepts that cause the rpboelms that in turn lead to the rise of the kind of pressures that caused the last collapse. The EU is being evolved as a supra-national government largely by countries whose record in having stable governments and workable constitutions of their own is dismal - so they seem to think "if we can't get it right for ourselves, we'll damn well make sure everyone else is afflicted by the same woes as us".