Oh yes you WILL have one!!"
Discussion
The Government is preparing to press on with plans to introduce identity cards after suffering a defeat in the House of Lords over the issue.
Home Office minister Andy Burnham has defended the cost of the controversial scheme.
He said that the financial figures behind the project had been independently verified, and dismissed as a "fantasy" suggestions that the cards could cost £500.
On Monday Conservative and Liberal Democrat peers passed an amendment that requires the Government to reveal the full cost of the scheme.
The Lords voted by 237 to 156 to block the scheme until the National Audit Office and MPs vet the figures. The Government will now reverse the Lords' decision in the Commons.
Revealing the cost of introducing identity cards would be "foolish in the extreme", said Home Office minister Andy Burnham.
The minister told Channel 4 News: "We have put figures in the public domain. We have been quite clear about how much it will cost to issue people with a biometric passport and a biometric identity card.
"We've also said that on the current costings of the scheme we can make it clear that we can afford to make it £30 for people to have a stand-alone identity card."
The Home Office estimates the scheme will cost about £584 million to run each year, with each combined passport and ID card costing £93.
However, it has not given full costs for setting up the project, and says that the overall total will depend on how government departments choose to use the cards.
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Which part of NO! Dont these dictators understand? And are these the same kinds of people that would apply such logic to a woman saying NO!?
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Im NOT having one Bliar!!
Home Office minister Andy Burnham has defended the cost of the controversial scheme.
He said that the financial figures behind the project had been independently verified, and dismissed as a "fantasy" suggestions that the cards could cost £500.
On Monday Conservative and Liberal Democrat peers passed an amendment that requires the Government to reveal the full cost of the scheme.
The Lords voted by 237 to 156 to block the scheme until the National Audit Office and MPs vet the figures. The Government will now reverse the Lords' decision in the Commons.
Revealing the cost of introducing identity cards would be "foolish in the extreme", said Home Office minister Andy Burnham.
The minister told Channel 4 News: "We have put figures in the public domain. We have been quite clear about how much it will cost to issue people with a biometric passport and a biometric identity card.
"We've also said that on the current costings of the scheme we can make it clear that we can afford to make it £30 for people to have a stand-alone identity card."
The Home Office estimates the scheme will cost about £584 million to run each year, with each combined passport and ID card costing £93.
However, it has not given full costs for setting up the project, and says that the overall total will depend on how government departments choose to use the cards.
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Which part of NO! Dont these dictators understand? And are these the same kinds of people that would apply such logic to a woman saying NO!?
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Im NOT having one Bliar!!
Whats the issue here? I sure as hell don't want to pay £100 or whatever it is top get one, but isn't it a good idea for all to have one? I can see an advantage if it's the be all and end all of identity, ie not having to take a suitcase full of stuff to get a bank account, but what are the cons? Fraud? Nanny state? Just interested to hear the views, and even create my own.
Cheers.
Cheers.
This is a decent round up of the case against. Read that and make your own mind up.
Recently I was asked to provide a reference for a friend who's looking to work in the Home Office. Despite being given my correct details when they wrote to me they managed to get both my name mis-spelled and my address wrong. ID cards are an expensive disaster just waiting to happen.
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 17th January 11:48
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 17th January 11:48
Einion Yrth said:
This is a decent round up of the case against. Read that and make your own mind up.
What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?
Guess I'll do some more homework then.
chilli said:
This is a decent round up of the case against. Read that and make your own mind up.
What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?
Guess I'll do some more homework then.
Sounds to me that your unprepared to even look. What are they going to do, brainwash you over the internet? Are you so weak minded that you can't read an argument put forward by the proponents of a particular point of view and yet decide on the substance of that argument for yourself?
chilli said:
This is a decent round up of the case against. Read that and make your own mind up.
What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?
Guess I'll do some more homework then.
You specifically asked for the cons, that's exactly what you got?
Einion Yrth said:
Sounds to me that your unprepared to even look. What are they going to do, brainwash you over the internet? Are you so weak minded that you can't read an argument put forward by the proponents of a particular point of view and yet decide on the substance of that argument for yourself?
But it's like coming on here expecting a topic on how brilliant Gatso cameras are. That site is too one-sided for reasoned debate.
do you trust the lowest bidder - employing the desperate on long shifts to imput the following into a fallable database?
Name
Other previous names or aliases;
Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
Address
Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
Current residential status;
Residential statuses previously held;
Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
Information recorded in the Register on request.
Photograph
Fingerprints
“Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
Signature
Nationality;
Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
National Identity Registration Number;
The number of any ID card that has been issued;
National Insurance number;
The number of any relevant immigration document;
The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
The date of every application for registration;
The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
and even if you trust this lot - are you 100% you'll trust the gov. in 10, 20, 30 years to properly handle all this information
Name
Other previous names or aliases;
Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
Address
Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
Current residential status;
Residential statuses previously held;
Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
Information recorded in the Register on request.
Photograph
Fingerprints
“Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
Signature
Nationality;
Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
National Identity Registration Number;
The number of any ID card that has been issued;
National Insurance number;
The number of any relevant immigration document;
The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
The date of every application for registration;
The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
and even if you trust this lot - are you 100% you'll trust the gov. in 10, 20, 30 years to properly handle all this information
Einion Yrth said:
This is a decent round up of the case against. Read that and make your own mind up.
What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?
Guess I'll do some more homework then.
Sounds to me that your unprepared to even look. What are they going to do, brainwash you over the internet? Are you so weak minded that you can't read an argument put forward by the proponents of a particular point of view and yet decide on the substance of that argument for yourself?
Unprepared to look? What do you think "Guess I'll do some more homework then" means?
It's not a case of being weak minded. And absofeckinlutely I'm more likely to be swayed one way or the other by reading one side of any argument. Does what make me weak minded or more likely to be brainwashed?
up-the-dubs said:
But it's like coming on here expecting a topic on how brilliant Gatso cameras are. That site is too one-sided for reasoned debate.
He asked for the cons, potential and actual, that site is a pretty good round up, and saved me a lot of typing - had he then come back with his own take on the situation, including any pros that he might see ( or indeed a link to a page containing them) then we could begin to have a rational debate. This did not happen. Furthermore UTD as,presumably, an Irish citizen you will not be exposed to this nonsense, and can therefore afford a degree of insouciance that I do not feel I can.
How am I supposed to parse;
"What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?"
As anything other than a blanket rejection of the points.
"Well that was a bit one sided, can anyone point me to the potential advantages of the scheme?"
Would have elicited a quite different response.
"What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?"
As anything other than a blanket rejection of the points.
"Well that was a bit one sided, can anyone point me to the potential advantages of the scheme?"
Would have elicited a quite different response.
lord summerisle said:
do you trust the lowest bidder - employing the desperate on long shifts to imput the following into a fallable database?
..................................................................
and even if you trust this lot - are you 100% you'll trust the gov. in 10, 20, 30 years to properly handle all this information
I don't trust this lost.... the DVLA are already selling driver details to private companies and we hear of rogue employees at credit card companies working for crime syndicates. Like you say will some call centre bod on minimum wage be bothered with security issues?
Einion Yrth said:
How am I supposed to parse;
"What crap. How can you tell me to log into a SAYNO2Id website, and expect anyone to make a balanced opinion?"
As anything other than a blanket rejection of the points.
"Well that was a bit one sided, can anyone point me to the potential advantages of the scheme?"
Would have elicited a quite different response.
Is there a list of the benefits anywhere? Non of the MPs can be pinned down to answer this from what I have seen/read!
i simply don't trust the government to:
A) Make it work 100% of the time, a necessity if it's to be implemented as touted.
B) Not use my information to track/financially penalise me.
Call me paranoid, but that's the impression I have of the system based on the information available to me.
CSA debacle anyone?
A) Make it work 100% of the time, a necessity if it's to be implemented as touted.
B) Not use my information to track/financially penalise me.
Call me paranoid, but that's the impression I have of the system based on the information available to me.
CSA debacle anyone?
cliffe_mafia said:
do you trust the lowest bidder - employing the desperate on long shifts to imput the following into a fallable database?
..................................................................
and even if you trust this lot - are you 100% you'll trust the gov. in 10, 20, 30 years to properly handle all this information
I don't trust this lost.... the DVLA are already selling driver details to private companies and we hear of rogue employees at credit card companies working for crime syndicates. Like you say will some call centre bod on minimum wage be bothered with security issues?
But don't the various government departments practically have all this info anyway....Just a case of amalgamating?
Okay Chilli, first off given recent history of the way goverments go about things....
The EU was sold to the UK people as an economic treaty NOT a political union in the 70s referendum.
Speed limits were bought in as an advisory measure during the oil crisis as a measure to conserve fuel....NOT a way to control the speed that motorists drive at.
The Prevention of Terrorism Act would apply to a tiny mintority of cases, NOT to tens of thousands of people from a woman on a bicycle to an octagenerian attending a Labour conference.
So starting from the fundamental premise that the last thing the Government will tell you is what they actually want to bring in ID cards for we have to wonder what are they upto?
It's to prevent terrorism..... Bullshit
Is it to because the government have lost control of immigration and simply have no idea who is and is not even in the country....quite possibly
Is it because following the intodution of the minimum wage in the UK and afore mentioned complete breakdown of immigration controls that the UK untaxed eoconomy has exploded? Probably.
Who knows what they're really upto, all you can guarentee is that it is not what they are telling you.
And if you don't believe that, having said that the card would be voluntary how come last week a paper drawing up plans to fine you £2500 for not having a valid ID card are being drafted was leaked?
The EU was sold to the UK people as an economic treaty NOT a political union in the 70s referendum.
Speed limits were bought in as an advisory measure during the oil crisis as a measure to conserve fuel....NOT a way to control the speed that motorists drive at.
The Prevention of Terrorism Act would apply to a tiny mintority of cases, NOT to tens of thousands of people from a woman on a bicycle to an octagenerian attending a Labour conference.
So starting from the fundamental premise that the last thing the Government will tell you is what they actually want to bring in ID cards for we have to wonder what are they upto?
It's to prevent terrorism..... Bullshit
Is it to because the government have lost control of immigration and simply have no idea who is and is not even in the country....quite possibly
Is it because following the intodution of the minimum wage in the UK and afore mentioned complete breakdown of immigration controls that the UK untaxed eoconomy has exploded? Probably.
Who knows what they're really upto, all you can guarentee is that it is not what they are telling you.
And if you don't believe that, having said that the card would be voluntary how come last week a paper drawing up plans to fine you £2500 for not having a valid ID card are being drafted was leaked?
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