Blocked / broken pipe under the road - legal question
Discussion
There's a local Dyno Rodney problem and any help from fellow PHers would be appreciated.
Turbo Towers is the second property along its road, situated close to a junction between two minor roads. The corner property to our right has the sewer drain cover in their garden, the drain is 'fed' by eight properties altogether consisting of us, the corner neighbour, and the six homes to our left.
Our neighbour has woken up on two successive mornings now, to find unmentionables floating on his lawn and flowing out across the path and down the road. On the first occasion he called the Dyno Rodders and they cleared everything out and flow was restored. Second time they took a bit more trouble and now reckon the pipe is cracked and subsided somewhere out beyond my neighbour's property, under the road, before the junction with the main pipe along the main road. They have a machine (apparently) like those British gas 'pigs' that will go down the pipe, find the problem zone, re-align and fit together the two halves if it's broken, and seal it with resin of some kind. The cost is worked out at £75 per metre that this 'pig' travels in its toil.
Neighbour phones the Council as the pipe is off his property under the road, Result - not our problem mate, phone Severn Trent Water.
Neighbour phones Severn Trent Water. Result - the problem is before the junction with our main pipe, not our problem mate, phone the Council.
NEighbour phones Dyno Rodders. Result - sounds like you'll have to claim on your home insurance mate.
They then send him some forms to give to the other seven property owners, I guess to share the cost.
Several questions crop up at this point, are there any answers based on legal wisdom or similar experience?!
1. Is it the Council's responsibility?
2. Is it the water company's resonsibility? Is their reason for denial right?
3. If neither of these fine bodies can be held responsible, is it s typical home insurance matter or is Rodders playing hookey?
4. If it is a home insurance matter, why are our Dynamic Rodney people wanting my neighbour to get all seven of the remaining properties to sign forms saying the costs MAY be covered by an insurance policy and that they instruct ABC Solicitors to act on their behalf for the purpose of the claim?
5. While I may be sympathetic to my neighbour's plight, the slop slope and wind direction are in my favour and the only hassle I've had so far is this knock on the door. Does this corner property have to bite the bullet as they just happen to have the access drain in their garden, something that should have been noted / been taken into account when they bought?
As of now I'm not signing anything. But, what's the score?
Turbo Towers is the second property along its road, situated close to a junction between two minor roads. The corner property to our right has the sewer drain cover in their garden, the drain is 'fed' by eight properties altogether consisting of us, the corner neighbour, and the six homes to our left.
Our neighbour has woken up on two successive mornings now, to find unmentionables floating on his lawn and flowing out across the path and down the road. On the first occasion he called the Dyno Rodders and they cleared everything out and flow was restored. Second time they took a bit more trouble and now reckon the pipe is cracked and subsided somewhere out beyond my neighbour's property, under the road, before the junction with the main pipe along the main road. They have a machine (apparently) like those British gas 'pigs' that will go down the pipe, find the problem zone, re-align and fit together the two halves if it's broken, and seal it with resin of some kind. The cost is worked out at £75 per metre that this 'pig' travels in its toil.
Neighbour phones the Council as the pipe is off his property under the road, Result - not our problem mate, phone Severn Trent Water.
Neighbour phones Severn Trent Water. Result - the problem is before the junction with our main pipe, not our problem mate, phone the Council.
NEighbour phones Dyno Rodders. Result - sounds like you'll have to claim on your home insurance mate.
They then send him some forms to give to the other seven property owners, I guess to share the cost.
Several questions crop up at this point, are there any answers based on legal wisdom or similar experience?!
1. Is it the Council's responsibility?
2. Is it the water company's resonsibility? Is their reason for denial right?
3. If neither of these fine bodies can be held responsible, is it s typical home insurance matter or is Rodders playing hookey?
4. If it is a home insurance matter, why are our Dynamic Rodney people wanting my neighbour to get all seven of the remaining properties to sign forms saying the costs MAY be covered by an insurance policy and that they instruct ABC Solicitors to act on their behalf for the purpose of the claim?
5. While I may be sympathetic to my neighbour's plight, the slop slope and wind direction are in my favour and the only hassle I've had so far is this knock on the door. Does this corner property have to bite the bullet as they just happen to have the access drain in their garden, something that should have been noted / been taken into account when they bought?
As of now I'm not signing anything. But, what's the score?
Parrot of Doom said:
I'd say its the council's responsibility. They manage the road, and therefore they should be the ones to contact any contractors who deal with anything underneath that road. They can't simply tell you to go straight to the water company, thats their responsibility, not yours.
Totally agree. A similar thing happened to a mate of mine, and was told by the council that he should not have had anyone else rodding their drains. It turned out that the manhole in question, being for all the householders, was the councils responsibility.
the house owner is responsible for the sewage pipe up to where it joins the main run at the junction.
if its before the junction and under the road you have to get a qualified contractor and permission from the council to dig the pavement up,if the road has to come up it gets expensive,better get your house insurance docs out.
if its before the junction and under the road you have to get a qualified contractor and permission from the council to dig the pavement up,if the road has to come up it gets expensive,better get your house insurance docs out.
As far as I know, once the drain leaves the boundary of your property, the Council are responsible. That's why you're not supposed to block-pave your drive to the kerb, you have to stop at the edge of the footpath, so that it doesn't cost them extra to repair the path should they need to dig it up.
As an aside, some years ago, I had to connect both storm and foul drains for my new depot to the mains in the road. I had to apply to the COUNCIL for permission to break into the mains, and also the Highways Dept for permission to partially close the road. The Council were ONLY interested in the drains AFTER they left our property.
HTH
As an aside, some years ago, I had to connect both storm and foul drains for my new depot to the mains in the road. I had to apply to the COUNCIL for permission to break into the mains, and also the Highways Dept for permission to partially close the road. The Council were ONLY interested in the drains AFTER they left our property.
HTH
I think the conrodkid has it right, I don't think unfortunately you would be able to make a claim under your household insurance, pretty sure this would not be covered.
The types of emergency insurance cover sold by the water companies prob wouldn't cover you either they tend to only provide limited emergency cover only.
The types of emergency insurance cover sold by the water companies prob wouldn't cover you either they tend to only provide limited emergency cover only.
Thanks for the replies.
Still puzzled by the suggestion from Dyno Rod to my neighbour - namely that he gets all 8 property owners to sign a form, which says home insurance 'may' cover the problem. First off if home contents policies do cover this - and I've noted the replies saying that this is unlikely - why raid more than one policy so that all 8 of us face a higher renewal premium? And how would the various insurers handle it, as sod's law says we'll have 8 different companies involved? Personally I think this is a form which I should never sign as it would effectively accept personal liability. Especially as the pipe exits from neighbour's garden not mine. What says PH?
>> Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 18th January 22:10
theconrodkid said:Dyno Rod say they can do the work without any digging up garden or path or road, by putting their sewer pipe 'repair pig' machine down. Even so it's not likely to be cheap, at £75 per metre with the problem estimated to be 10 metres away. Could be worse though.
the house owner is responsible for the sewage pipe up to where it joins the main run at the junction.
if its before the junction and under the road you have to get a qualified contractor and permission from the council to dig the pavement up,if the road has to come up it gets expensive,better get your house insurance docs out.
falcemob said:Right, I'll get checking.
As far as joint liability goes, I am assuming you all own your houses, check that there are no charges on your title deeds giving joint responsibility for the sewerage.
Still puzzled by the suggestion from Dyno Rod to my neighbour - namely that he gets all 8 property owners to sign a form, which says home insurance 'may' cover the problem. First off if home contents policies do cover this - and I've noted the replies saying that this is unlikely - why raid more than one policy so that all 8 of us face a higher renewal premium? And how would the various insurers handle it, as sod's law says we'll have 8 different companies involved? Personally I think this is a form which I should never sign as it would effectively accept personal liability. Especially as the pipe exits from neighbour's garden not mine. What says PH?
>> Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 18th January 22:10
I currently have a problem with a blocked sewer and all the answers on here appear to be wrong.
There are two types of sewer public and private. Effectively most properties connect to a private sewer which in turn connects to a public sewer which is usually in the middle of the road.
With the private sewer it is the responsibility of the person on whose land the problem is to fix it, but they then charge it back to all those who are affected by it. In this case the 8 of you. The road may be owned by the council but they will charge the earth for diging it up to fix the problem! So if Dynorod can fix it remotely I suggest you go that route. My insurance company advises me that the cost is something they will pay out, even though the problem is not on my land, assumming it costs more than the excess.
In my case the sewer serving 4 houses is blocked within the tumbler system where it joins a manhole in a 5th persons back garden. The only access to that back garden is through is garage and the access will not permot a digger. So it looks like fixing it could be remarkably expensive. To make matters worse the 5th person has to arrange fixing it as it is in his garden, but has no incentive to do so as he is not affected by the problem! So we may have to ask the Council to force him to do the work in which case as well as paying a 1/4 of the costs of the work we will need to pay the COuncils admin charge too!
There are two types of sewer public and private. Effectively most properties connect to a private sewer which in turn connects to a public sewer which is usually in the middle of the road.
With the private sewer it is the responsibility of the person on whose land the problem is to fix it, but they then charge it back to all those who are affected by it. In this case the 8 of you. The road may be owned by the council but they will charge the earth for diging it up to fix the problem! So if Dynorod can fix it remotely I suggest you go that route. My insurance company advises me that the cost is something they will pay out, even though the problem is not on my land, assumming it costs more than the excess.
In my case the sewer serving 4 houses is blocked within the tumbler system where it joins a manhole in a 5th persons back garden. The only access to that back garden is through is garage and the access will not permot a digger. So it looks like fixing it could be remarkably expensive. To make matters worse the 5th person has to arrange fixing it as it is in his garden, but has no incentive to do so as he is not affected by the problem! So we may have to ask the Council to force him to do the work in which case as well as paying a 1/4 of the costs of the work we will need to pay the COuncils admin charge too!
had a similar problem, but my sewer pipe only serves my house. It is your responsibility even after the boundary of your property until it means the main sewer. My pipe had collapsed and the insurance company paid for a camera to be sent down to confirm the problem and then paid for the repairs.
How old is your property ?, if it's older than 1930 (I think) then the coucil have extra liability due to the fact that the pipes were narrower then. If there are 8 of you I'd be tempted just to pay for the repairs and split the costs.
Not sure about dyno rod ?, where abouts are you ?.
How old is your property ?, if it's older than 1930 (I think) then the coucil have extra liability due to the fact that the pipes were narrower then. If there are 8 of you I'd be tempted just to pay for the repairs and split the costs.
Not sure about dyno rod ?, where abouts are you ?.
I can update on my situation now!
The neighbour in whose garden the manhole is has contacted his insurance company who have sent a drain man around. This drain man says that as the problem is not in his sewer pipe it is down to us to resolve, although did accept that as the chamber is damaged his client might be responsible for a share in that cost.
So it appears my 3 neighbours and I need to find a drain man who then has to speak to 5th person to gain access.
One of my neighbours and I did suggest to the drain man who was there today that he put and camera down the sewer and we paid him but he couln;t do that has had been sent by the insurance company!
So looks like we need a third company to peer down the sewer!
The neighbour in whose garden the manhole is has contacted his insurance company who have sent a drain man around. This drain man says that as the problem is not in his sewer pipe it is down to us to resolve, although did accept that as the chamber is damaged his client might be responsible for a share in that cost.
So it appears my 3 neighbours and I need to find a drain man who then has to speak to 5th person to gain access.
One of my neighbours and I did suggest to the drain man who was there today that he put and camera down the sewer and we paid him but he couln;t do that has had been sent by the insurance company!
So looks like we need a third company to peer down the sewer!
ledger said:
How old is your property ?, if it's older than 1930 (I think) then the coucil have extra liability due to the fact that the pipes were narrower then. If there are 8 of you I'd be tempted just to pay for the repairs and split the costs.
If the sewer in question was laid before Oct 1936, AND it serves more than one property (i.e. this does not include the section of pipe before it joins the pipe serving a neighbours property), then this is known as a Section 24 sewer, refering to an Act of Parliament supposed to clarify the matter. A Section 24 sewer is the responsibility of the water company responsible for drainage in the area, which may not be the same company that supplies the clean water. E.g. Maidstone in Kent is supplied with water by Mid Kent Water, but the public sewers are the responsibility of Southern Water.
Sewers laid later are usually private unless they have been adopted by the water company, or are main sewers in the road, but a main sewer can still be private, typically those serving newer estates. Sewers that serve only one property are always private until they join the public sewer. A water company may decline to adopt a sewer if it is not constructed to a sufficient standard or material.
If the sewers are private, whoever is responsible for them has responsibility up to and including the joint to the public sewer. This may well include a section under the highway.
Since April 1992, the only foul sewers the local council are responsible for are those serving council owned properties that would be considered private under the normal rules, and highway drains. Before that time, the councils looked after the public sewers as agents of the water companies, and for which they received large sums of money annually from the water companies.
Generally speaking, the only body with detailed information on which sewers are public is the responsible water company, not the council or private drain clearance agents, although the latter can usually make a pretty good guess through experience.
No-one has definitive plans of Section 24 sewers as they are so old, and plans were lost or perhaps never drawn up in the first place.
There are surface water sewers, foul sewers and combined sewers. It is an offence to connect a foul sewer to a surface water sewer, as these often drain into a ditch or stream. The Environment Agency will prosecute.
Experience has shown that all the above can only be regarded as a general guide, there are always exceptions.
Paul.
>> Edited by B16 RFF on Thursday 19th January 10:49
Thanks for the additional replies. The properties were built - and the sewer was laid - after the 1930's and probably the 40's and 50's as well. It seems as though it's the responsibility of my neighbour, as it's his garden where the pipe emerges and goes out into the road. Also I agree that there are probably tree roots growing into a crack in the pipe as there were bits of stuff like that in the detritus that came back out when the last blockage was cleared.
Still haven't checked deeds or policies, but it looks like I / we won't be signing any joint liability form. What I guess will happen is that my neighbour claims (or pays) and the seven remaining 'sewer feeders' pay one-eighth of the cost, again either via insurance if covered, or cash if not. I'm quite prepared to be a good neighbour and pay up an eighth, even if the deeds don't make it compulsory, but there could be interesting negitations ahead between chappie next door and the other folks. We'll see.
Still haven't checked deeds or policies, but it looks like I / we won't be signing any joint liability form. What I guess will happen is that my neighbour claims (or pays) and the seven remaining 'sewer feeders' pay one-eighth of the cost, again either via insurance if covered, or cash if not. I'm quite prepared to be a good neighbour and pay up an eighth, even if the deeds don't make it compulsory, but there could be interesting negitations ahead between chappie next door and the other folks. We'll see.
B16 RFF said:
lots of stuff
Quite correct but I do feel you could have expanded into sections 17,18,19 and 104 of past and current water acts just to make things crystal
turbobloke said:
It seems as though it's the responsibility of my neighbour, as it's his garden where the pipe emerges and goes out into the road.
Not quite, what you have here is a private shared sewer and as such all properties connected into it have a joint responsibility to uphold it's condition. That is the reason Dyno are asking for all policies as they will look for, in your case, a one eighth share from each property.
If you consider your logic through, it would give the poor chap with the problem the ability to block off any incoming stream from you and any one else upstream thereby leaving you with the cr*p on your lawn
motorvator said:Well the 5h1tty problem would affect another neighbour's lawn with an inspection cover, and that's not mine - but anyway as you will have read elsewhere in my post, I'm quite happy to pay my one eighth share either as a policy claim or in cash. However the form hinting at joint liability talks of instructing solicitors, so there's no way that's getting signed. Just more expense for no reason, either the policy covers it or we'll pay cash. Shared equally of course
If you consider your logic through, it would give the poor chap with the problem the ability to block off any incoming stream from you and any one else upstream thereby leaving you with the cr*p on your lawn
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 19th January 21:33
turbobloke said:
If you consider your logic through, it would give the poor chap with the problem the ability to block off any incoming stream from you and any one else upstream thereby leaving you with the cr*p on your lawn
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 19th January 21:33
Top man, much better to get all parties together and agree to get it sorted equally. The form probably hints at the legal fraternity because you could get two or three idiots within the group who claim it's down to whoever has the manhole
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