'Clockwork Orange' society - how close are we?
Discussion
There was one of those news discussion shows on this morning talking about street violence. The presenter mentioned the attacks being carried out as being 'like the ones in A Clockwork Orange' but he never got the chance to explain it further.
For those who haven't seen the Kubrick film or read the Anthony Burgess book, I'll summarise. The society in A Clockwork Orange is one where society has essentially split into two tiers - an ultra law-abiding middle class that enjoys its sports cars and fine art, but lives in separate communities closed off in the middle of nowhere.
Then you've got vast urban sprawls of utter lawlessness, where gangs of near-feral teenagers roam around murdering, raping, beating and destroying for the sheer hell of it. Everyone living in these areas is confined to violent concrete ghettoes. No-one is safe from the gangs of 'droogs'. And there isn't a policeman in sight (although there are a lot of CCTV cameras).
Eventually, the government admits that traditional policing no longer works, so they choose the main character of the story (Alex, who was arrested and imprisoned for a motiveless murder), to be the first to undergo an invasive mental reconditioning treatment, altering his brain so that, when traditionally he would have become violent, he feels overwhelming nausea. The effects of the treatment gradually turn him into an increasingly vulnerable victim.
Looking over it all, I can't help but think that it is, unfortunately, the society we are heading towards. We have large urban ghettoes where the kids are out of control and see all manner of violent crime as a recreational activity. We have a gang culture, imported from the US, which glorifies violence between groups for any reason at all. We have a lenient society that seems not to care enough to actually do something about it. We have CCTV cameras everywhere and no policemen in sight most of the time.
How long before we do end up with the Britain of A Clockwork Orange? Where the government finally cave in and do something dangerously radical and medical with these hordes of kids? I'm not sure what's scarier, a society where no-one is safe from violence unless you can afford to live elsewhere, or a society where the government mentally conditions people as a last resort to stop crime.
What do you lot think?
For those who haven't seen the Kubrick film or read the Anthony Burgess book, I'll summarise. The society in A Clockwork Orange is one where society has essentially split into two tiers - an ultra law-abiding middle class that enjoys its sports cars and fine art, but lives in separate communities closed off in the middle of nowhere.
Then you've got vast urban sprawls of utter lawlessness, where gangs of near-feral teenagers roam around murdering, raping, beating and destroying for the sheer hell of it. Everyone living in these areas is confined to violent concrete ghettoes. No-one is safe from the gangs of 'droogs'. And there isn't a policeman in sight (although there are a lot of CCTV cameras).
Eventually, the government admits that traditional policing no longer works, so they choose the main character of the story (Alex, who was arrested and imprisoned for a motiveless murder), to be the first to undergo an invasive mental reconditioning treatment, altering his brain so that, when traditionally he would have become violent, he feels overwhelming nausea. The effects of the treatment gradually turn him into an increasingly vulnerable victim.
Looking over it all, I can't help but think that it is, unfortunately, the society we are heading towards. We have large urban ghettoes where the kids are out of control and see all manner of violent crime as a recreational activity. We have a gang culture, imported from the US, which glorifies violence between groups for any reason at all. We have a lenient society that seems not to care enough to actually do something about it. We have CCTV cameras everywhere and no policemen in sight most of the time.
How long before we do end up with the Britain of A Clockwork Orange? Where the government finally cave in and do something dangerously radical and medical with these hordes of kids? I'm not sure what's scarier, a society where no-one is safe from violence unless you can afford to live elsewhere, or a society where the government mentally conditions people as a last resort to stop crime.
What do you lot think?
A very interesting question.
Undoubtedly there will come a time when very drastic measures are required in order to preserve the brittle fabric of society. I think there is much to be said for the re-establishment of penal colonies on remote islands where the persistent offenders are simply dumped for the rest of their lives.
Ultimately, the needs of the vast majority will have to outweigh the needs (or disruption) of the few...
Undoubtedly there will come a time when very drastic measures are required in order to preserve the brittle fabric of society. I think there is much to be said for the re-establishment of penal colonies on remote islands where the persistent offenders are simply dumped for the rest of their lives.
Ultimately, the needs of the vast majority will have to outweigh the needs (or disruption) of the few...
Twincam16 said:
How long before we do end up with the Britain of A Clockwork Orange? Where the government finally cave in and do something dangerously radical and medical with these hordes of kids? I'm not sure what's scarier, a society where no-one is safe from violence unless you can afford to live elsewhere, or a society where the government mentally conditions people as a last resort to stop crime.
What do you lot think?
There are indeed many parallels between the world depicted in a Clockwork Orange and the Britain of today. There has been a very large migration out of London by the middle classes which if it continues at the same rate for another decade would leave London to the poor and the immigrants. Has traditional law enforcement been shown to fail though?, or has it simply not been tried.
Ronnie Kray was administered drugs to change his outlook during his first spell in Broadmoor.
Social reconditioning has been around since the 50's though I am not sure how often its used today, probably still in the confines of Max Security Hospitals I assume.
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
Social reconditioning has been around since the 50's though I am not sure how often its used today, probably still in the confines of Max Security Hospitals I assume.
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
I certainly think a society where the mindless scrotes get neutered or castrated once they have proven to be worthless would be a much less scarier thing. That would hopefully gradually create a more peaceful future for everyone.
At the moment we are heading towards a society where the chavved up scum will be the majority due to multiple births etc and the fact that "middle class" England is producing less offspring. So forced sterilisation would redress the balance hopefully and a positive side affect would be better (slower) population growth
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 24th January 14:28
At the moment we are heading towards a society where the chavved up scum will be the majority due to multiple births etc and the fact that "middle class" England is producing less offspring. So forced sterilisation would redress the balance hopefully and a positive side affect would be better (slower) population growth
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 24th January 14:28
Jaglover said:
How long before we do end up with the Britain of A Clockwork Orange? Where the government finally cave in and do something dangerously radical and medical with these hordes of kids? I'm not sure what's scarier, a society where no-one is safe from violence unless you can afford to live elsewhere, or a society where the government mentally conditions people as a last resort to stop crime.
What do you lot think?
There are indeed many parallels between the world depicted in a Clockwork Orange and the Britain of today. There has been a very large migration out of London by the middle classes which if it continues at the same rate for another decade would leave London to the poor and the immigrants. Has traditional law enforcement been shown to fail though?, or has it simply not been tried.
I think it has failed under mountains of red tape and a culture among violent kids of protesting rights without regard to responsibilities. The Police are essentially powerless against these kids - who are essentially some of society's most violent criminals and yet there are no truly effective punishments available to fit their crimes.
And their numbers are expanding rapidly. Bad kids invariably bring up bad kids, parents are getting younger and younger and (IMO) increasingly incapable, and of course they have more than one kid each, meaning that the massed ranks of these armies of lawless feral children not only outnumber, but probably outgun the police.
When I was in London last week, even the inner-city tower blocks reminded me of A Clockwork Orange, a crumbling dystopia where nothing matters. Go to any city centre in the UK (well, any fairly central non-exclusive low-income residential area at least) and you'll see a similar story. The groundwork is all there and the problem population is rapidly expanding. It's bad news.
And yes, the middle classes are moving further and further away. I don't blame them, but there will come a point where there will simply be too big a problem - and the jails will be too full - to use traditional methods any more.
Plotloss said:
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
Perhaps so, though I do detect a certain complacency on the part of some middle class intellectuals in regard to crime, an argument often made that crime is always with us and current concerns are mere tabloid hysteria. Crime is high now, both historically (comparing to pre-1960s) and in comparison to other western countries (on international victims of crime survey's England & Wales has one of the highest crime rates in the developed world)
Twincam16 said:
Then you've got vast urban sprawls of utter lawlessness, where gangs of near-feral teenagers roam around murdering, raping, beating and destroying for the sheer hell of it. Everyone living in these areas is confined to violent concrete ghettoes. No-one is safe from the gangs of 'droogs'. And there isn't a policeman in sight (although there are a lot of CCTV cameras).
.
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How long before we do end up with the Britain of A Clockwork Orange?
Based on your description, you've just described most of the Britain's cities as they are NOW.
So how long before we end up with a "Clockwork Orange" style society? We're pretty much there from what I can see. Quite sad, really.
Twincam16 said:
I think it has failed under mountains of red tape and a culture among violent kids of protesting rights without regard to responsibilities. The Police are essentially powerless against these kids - who are essentially some of society's most violent criminals and yet there are no truly effective punishments available to fit their crimes.
But that is my point traditional law enforcement, in the sense of the police controlling the streets, investigating all crimes and those perpetrators they do catch being effectively punished, has been abandoned.
Before we turn to mind experimentation or chemical castration we should try a return to traditional law enforcement (along with traditional welfare policies)
Plotloss said:
But that in itself surely depends on how we count crime and from the opinion of the serving BiB on here thats not the simple task one may assume it to be.
Which suggests that a highly radical rethink as to how we combat crime might be regarded as some kind of solution.
You say it so often yourself with your Liberal views, suggesting how criminal matters involving drugs and so forth might be partially circumvented if the drugs themselves weren't illegal.
Now how would you apply similar thinking to violent crime - assault, murder and rape? If traditional (dare I say it) conservative justice has become merely a minor irritant for today's young recreational criminals, how are you going to 'solve' them?
Now obviously you can't 'legalise' assault, murder and rape, but I'd be interested to know what your views are in relation to alternative, effective, radical liberal approaches to violent criminals.
Perhaps if someone were to discover a drug that suppresses violence (I'm sure given research it wouldn't be that difficult), that would suggest a possible solution?
Twincam16 said:
Perhaps if someone were to discover a drug that suppresses violence (I'm sure given research it wouldn't be that difficult), that would suggest a possible solution?
There is a drug commonly used that does just that. In fact, it suppresses the urge to do anything at all.
Plotloss said:
Ronnie Kray was administered drugs to change his outlook during his first spell in Broadmoor.
Social reconditioning has been around since the 50's though I am not sure how often its used today, probably still in the confines of Max Security Hospitals I assume.
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
Well said, this is still a great place to live and will long remain so.
To all the doom mongers who think it isn't safe to walk the streets, take a trip to somewhere like Jo'berg and try you hand at extreme strolling, even better, go at night.
shnozz said:
Perhaps if someone were to discover a drug that suppresses violence (I'm sure given research it wouldn't be that difficult), that would suggest a possible solution?
There is a drug commonly used that does just that. In fact, it suppresses the urge to do anything at all.
You know what I mean though - something that allows the ex-crim to go about their everyday law-abiding life, only with whatever it is in their brain that causes them to fly off the handle habitually chemically repressed in some way.
xm5er said:
Ronnie Kray was administered drugs to change his outlook during his first spell in Broadmoor.
Social reconditioning has been around since the 50's though I am not sure how often its used today, probably still in the confines of Max Security Hospitals I assume.
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
Well said, this is still a great place to live and will long remain so.
To all the doom mongers who think it isn't safe to walk the streets, take a trip to somewhere like Jo'berg and try you hand at extreme strolling, even better, go at night.
I take it you live in a leafy suburb then, or some 'executive development'.
Go to places where the concrete reigns supreme and you live on the 33rd floor, and I think you'll find certain gradually-expanding places in the UK aren't exactly unlike Johannesburg at night.
Things may be better than urban SA, but they're getting worse, and I think the middle classes in their suburban retreats cannot accurately quantify the problem, neither could they in A Clockwork Orange.
When was the last time you saw a pilled up clubber or a stoner engaging in pavement violence, on your last point, theres your answer... 
Violent crimes are not generally undertaken by opportunist kids, we just dont have gangs of bowler hatted A level students roaming the land in stolen cars looking for Guardian readers to rape or indeed engaging in comedic sex scenes.
The mindset of people who undertake violent crimes is not someting that easily addressable and I would suggest the incidence of which is fairly static across decades.
For the anti social crimes that Marxist number one is so keen to address I see a far simpler solution. Labour camps. Nothing scares a bone idle, world owes me a living teenager like honest to goodness hard work...
Violent crimes are not generally undertaken by opportunist kids, we just dont have gangs of bowler hatted A level students roaming the land in stolen cars looking for Guardian readers to rape or indeed engaging in comedic sex scenes.
The mindset of people who undertake violent crimes is not someting that easily addressable and I would suggest the incidence of which is fairly static across decades.
For the anti social crimes that Marxist number one is so keen to address I see a far simpler solution. Labour camps. Nothing scares a bone idle, world owes me a living teenager like honest to goodness hard work...
Twincam16 said:
Perhaps if someone were to discover a drug that suppresses violence (I'm sure given research it wouldn't be that difficult), that would suggest a possible solution?
There is a drug commonly used that does just that. In fact, it suppresses the urge to do anything at all.
You know what I mean though - something that allows the ex-crim to go about their everyday law-abiding life, only with whatever it is in their brain that causes them to fly off the handle habitually chemically repressed in some way.
yes of course I know what you mean. I was trying to make light of another of your morbid threads.
In today's society human rights is the phrase in the mind of every scumbag walking the streets (the second word being compensation). If you can change the mindset of the majority that these people need to be dealt with (whether by medication/imprisonment or any other means) then I dare say the problem eradicates itself without any interference. Its having the majority backing up and reinforcing the fact that these people should have no rights for anything once they cross the line.
Twincam16 said:
You know what I mean though - something that allows the ex-crim to go about their everyday law-abiding life, only with whatever it is in their brain that causes them to fly off the handle habitually chemically repressed in some way.
Attitude adjustment of the 9mm variety for repeat offenders. I think some sort of points system where various crimes have different points values. Everytime you are convicted the points are added (along with the relevent sentence). When you reach, say, 100 you're taken into the prison yard and shot...... The truth is that 98% of the population are being held to randsom by the 2% who can't control their wish to do harm so identify the worst offenders and remove them for the good of society.
Twincam16 said:
Ronnie Kray was administered drugs to change his outlook during his first spell in Broadmoor.
Social reconditioning has been around since the 50's though I am not sure how often its used today, probably still in the confines of Max Security Hospitals I assume.
As for the post apocalyptic view of the UK that Burgess had and one in which crime goes unchecked, probably never, crime is thankfully still fairly rare.
Well said, this is still a great place to live and will long remain so.
To all the doom mongers who think it isn't safe to walk the streets, take a trip to somewhere like Jo'berg and try you hand at extreme strolling, even better, go at night.
I take it you live in a leafy suburb then, or some 'executive development'.
Go to places where the concrete reigns supreme and you live on the 33rd floor, and I think you'll find certain gradually-expanding places in the UK aren't exactly unlike Johannesburg at night.
Things may be better than urban SA, but they're getting worse, and I think the middle classes in their suburban retreats cannot accurately quantify the problem, neither could they in A Clockwork Orange.
And that's where you live is it my middleclass friend? Thought not, try getting out of an evening, you may realise that you can indeed walk around in the dead of night in London or Manchester without getting done over. It's no worse or better now than it ever has been, there have always been warnkers and there always will be.
BTW you forgot to mention Burgess' ending to the story (not Kubricks), where Alex just grows up and doesn't want to do it anymore.
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