Advice needed for Nigerian Scam
Discussion
Just got off the phone from a dear friend of mine who is currently picking herself up off the floor. She has just been informed by the bank that she owes them £3300 as a result of being at the end of a fraud.
I know most of us are aware of this scam, but for those of you that don't please listen up - if it saves one more person it will be worth it. Here's what transpired:
She placed an advert on loot for the sale of her dishwasher. It was up for £200. The scammer agreed to purchase it, then asked her if she would take a cheque. She said she would as long as the cheque cleared first. The scammer then said that he had relatives that were sick blah blah blah, and needed money cashed for them and if he sent her a cheque for £3500 in good faith (grrrr), could she please cash it, and after it had cleared, send the ballance back to him via a Western Union money order. She agreed and did just that and cashed the cheque, leaving it in her bank for 5 working days after it had cleared, then she sent the ballance on to him via Western Union.
When she went to withdraw the cash she asked the Teller if the cheque had cleared, and the teller replied, "yes it's cleared funds". About a week later she got a phonecall from the bank telling her that she was overdrawn to the sum of £3500 because the cheque had bounced.
She asked them how she could possibly be liable because they had waited for the cheque to clear (presumably drawing interest from it while it was in their account), and then they paid it out to her in cash; so how good is any cheque? Their response was, " A cheque can 'go bad' from anytime - even 10 days or longer, and that a cheque is no guarantee that the payment is legitimate
Really? If so we ought to think carefully about how we use cheques in the future.
So we thought together about this and both came up with the same conclusions:
1) If I have £100 in my account (as she did at the time) and I go to the counter of my bank and I write 'Pay Cash' £3000 and give it to the Teller... do they give it to me? Hell no, they just laugh. "Sorry that's unauthorized borrowing madam, and that has to be approved by the bank before we give it to you". That is based on a personal account where the Bank knows (and has vetted) the account holder and therefore knows the associated risks.
2) Why then will a bank allow £3500 to be handed over from a chequeing account from a payee who is completely unknown, and leave it for 5 days in an account, THEN pay it out in cash, THEN ask for the money back because the cheque is not worth the paper it is written on. Don't banks perform any kind of checks on the cheques ?(!)
Sorry but that is just not fair, it is not professional, and I think that the bank should have the responsibility to ensure that the cheque is genuine.
So I throw it to the PH masses with a plea for some info especially if there are any legal types or Bankers on here that can shed some light.
Please bear in mind that she is an innocent female, who is unaware of the scams, she has a heart of gold and has had a rough time in the past, but her charactor is warm and friendly and she was only trying to help someone, so please no flaming as she already has enough to deal with
You hear about these scams everyday but you never actually think you will know someone that would get stung by them. What I want to know is with all the beauricratic rubbish and laws which are dominating our society why this loophole hasn't been closed long ago. Fraud, robbery, extortion - call in what you like.
It is just plain wrong.
I know most of us are aware of this scam, but for those of you that don't please listen up - if it saves one more person it will be worth it. Here's what transpired:
She placed an advert on loot for the sale of her dishwasher. It was up for £200. The scammer agreed to purchase it, then asked her if she would take a cheque. She said she would as long as the cheque cleared first. The scammer then said that he had relatives that were sick blah blah blah, and needed money cashed for them and if he sent her a cheque for £3500 in good faith (grrrr), could she please cash it, and after it had cleared, send the ballance back to him via a Western Union money order. She agreed and did just that and cashed the cheque, leaving it in her bank for 5 working days after it had cleared, then she sent the ballance on to him via Western Union.
When she went to withdraw the cash she asked the Teller if the cheque had cleared, and the teller replied, "yes it's cleared funds". About a week later she got a phonecall from the bank telling her that she was overdrawn to the sum of £3500 because the cheque had bounced.
She asked them how she could possibly be liable because they had waited for the cheque to clear (presumably drawing interest from it while it was in their account), and then they paid it out to her in cash; so how good is any cheque? Their response was, " A cheque can 'go bad' from anytime - even 10 days or longer, and that a cheque is no guarantee that the payment is legitimate
Really? If so we ought to think carefully about how we use cheques in the future. So we thought together about this and both came up with the same conclusions:
1) If I have £100 in my account (as she did at the time) and I go to the counter of my bank and I write 'Pay Cash' £3000 and give it to the Teller... do they give it to me? Hell no, they just laugh. "Sorry that's unauthorized borrowing madam, and that has to be approved by the bank before we give it to you". That is based on a personal account where the Bank knows (and has vetted) the account holder and therefore knows the associated risks.
2) Why then will a bank allow £3500 to be handed over from a chequeing account from a payee who is completely unknown, and leave it for 5 days in an account, THEN pay it out in cash, THEN ask for the money back because the cheque is not worth the paper it is written on. Don't banks perform any kind of checks on the cheques ?(!)
Sorry but that is just not fair, it is not professional, and I think that the bank should have the responsibility to ensure that the cheque is genuine.
So I throw it to the PH masses with a plea for some info especially if there are any legal types or Bankers on here that can shed some light.
Please bear in mind that she is an innocent female, who is unaware of the scams, she has a heart of gold and has had a rough time in the past, but her charactor is warm and friendly and she was only trying to help someone, so please no flaming as she already has enough to deal with
You hear about these scams everyday but you never actually think you will know someone that would get stung by them. What I want to know is with all the beauricratic rubbish and laws which are dominating our society why this loophole hasn't been closed long ago. Fraud, robbery, extortion - call in what you like.
It is just plain wrong.
I can;t believe that - you assume that the reason banks keep cheques for that long is so they check if the funds are available etc. IMO its their fault for saying the funds had cleared - does she have a bank statement showing the balance at that point?
Personally, I'm surprised she fell for it, and I'm surprised they went after someone selling a washing machine. Very unlucky though, and I'm sorry to hear about it
Personally, I'm surprised she fell for it, and I'm surprised they went after someone selling a washing machine. Very unlucky though, and I'm sorry to hear about it
no flaming from me buddy, that is despicable, and I'm surprised a bank can do that actually, if a cheques is cleared by them then it's cleared in my eyes.
Edited to add tell her to try the banking ombudsman, she's been conned and it's in the banks interest to know about these scams
>> Edited by apache on Monday 13th February 19:52
Edited to add tell her to try the banking ombudsman, she's been conned and it's in the banks interest to know about these scams
>> Edited by apache on Monday 13th February 19:52
Whilst I don't (normally) condone violence I think we should go round to Nigeria and kick the bollox off this bastard.
It's tragic that cunning dishonest people take advantage of naive trusting honest people. However, the banks hardly help by clearing the funds then changing their minds. They make the rules so usually win.
There must be lots of precedents. If you can't any joy out of the bank, how about approaching the Banking Ombudsman and appealing?
It's tragic that cunning dishonest people take advantage of naive trusting honest people. However, the banks hardly help by clearing the funds then changing their minds. They make the rules so usually win.
There must be lots of precedents. If you can't any joy out of the bank, how about approaching the Banking Ombudsman and appealing?
Thanks for the replies guys.
I believe that in order to use the Banking Ombudsman, all channels of communication between the bank and the customer have to be exhausted first.
I would be very interested to hear from someone who has worked in a Bank or knows Bank policy on this.
(edited to add) That is her next port of call.
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Monday 13th February 19:57
simpo two said:
Whilst I don't (normally) condone violence I think we should go round to Nigeria and kick the bollox off this bastard.
It's tragic that cunning dishonest people take advantage of naive trusting honest people. However, the banks hardly help by clearing the funds then changing their minds. They make the rules so usually win.
There must be lots of precedents. If you can't any joy out of the bank, how about approaching the Banking Ombudsman and appealing?
I believe that in order to use the Banking Ombudsman, all channels of communication between the bank and the customer have to be exhausted first.
I would be very interested to hear from someone who has worked in a Bank or knows Bank policy on this.
(edited to add) That is her next port of call.
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Monday 13th February 19:57
I'm afraid cheques can actually fail up to 6 months after you have banked them.
When they say a cheque is cleared, what they really mean is they will allow you to withdraw the funds.
A bank will never say 100% that the funds are there and are going nowhere.
I don't think she will get anywhere with a complaint.
When they say a cheque is cleared, what they really mean is they will allow you to withdraw the funds.
A bank will never say 100% that the funds are there and are going nowhere.
I don't think she will get anywhere with a complaint.
There have been cases of scam victims being prosecuted and even jailed for this because the cheques they cashed were forgeries (at least in the USA), your friend appears to have been scammed from a real account (a lot of crooks use this technique to launder money).
When you cash a cheque you are effectively vouching for that cheques reliability. The fact that cheques move through the system both electronically and physically means that electronically cleared checks have only appeared as a debit in the originating account. The bank will then credit your account with the amount while the checks makes its way physically through the cheque clearing house. Its a stupid system and I don't know enough about it to figure out why they don't use a more reliable system!
Western Union haven't done anything wrong as the money they sent was, as far as they are concerned, yours to send. Your friend is basically screwed; banks occasionally absorb losses like this but its very very rare. The only other hope is for the police to catch the crooks but as most West African BiB are on the take themselves I wouldn't be too hopeful. If the scammer originates from south africa then have a look at www.419legal.org/ the police in SA are doing their best to stop them.
The other thing you can do is give me the scammers email and I add him to my list of scammers I'm currently stringing along.
>> Edited by MilnerR on Monday 13th February 20:21
When you cash a cheque you are effectively vouching for that cheques reliability. The fact that cheques move through the system both electronically and physically means that electronically cleared checks have only appeared as a debit in the originating account. The bank will then credit your account with the amount while the checks makes its way physically through the cheque clearing house. Its a stupid system and I don't know enough about it to figure out why they don't use a more reliable system!
Western Union haven't done anything wrong as the money they sent was, as far as they are concerned, yours to send. Your friend is basically screwed; banks occasionally absorb losses like this but its very very rare. The only other hope is for the police to catch the crooks but as most West African BiB are on the take themselves I wouldn't be too hopeful. If the scammer originates from south africa then have a look at www.419legal.org/ the police in SA are doing their best to stop them.
The other thing you can do is give me the scammers email and I add him to my list of scammers I'm currently stringing along.
>> Edited by MilnerR on Monday 13th February 20:21
Tell you what, I will set up an account, you lot send me cheques for huge sums that WILL bounce. When the bank tells me that the funds are cleared, I will take all the cash and close the account. Then I share the cash back out amongst those who sent me the rubber cheques. When the bank realises the cheques are rubber, too late, the account has closed.
You see what I mean - this just has to be stopped. These bloody Banks are getting cocky now they think they are going to get us moving away from using cash.
The more I hear of this, the more I want to contiune to use good old fashioned cash.
In an age where 'they' can track your car from one end of the country to the other, 'they' can read every email sent, you can order things over a network and be secure and guranteed against credit card fraud, but when you write an age old cheque and get stung, there should be more protection for individuals
I think that the bank should have a duty of care to protect its members. If this is true and there is nothing that can be done, then its not fair on any other business that has had to ensure their policy for customer satisfation has been upheld - like second hand car dealers or Licensed Doormen as an example.
The more I hear of this, the more I want to contiune to use good old fashioned cash.
In an age where 'they' can track your car from one end of the country to the other, 'they' can read every email sent, you can order things over a network and be secure and guranteed against credit card fraud, but when you write an age old cheque and get stung, there should be more protection for individuals
I think that the bank should have a duty of care to protect its members. If this is true and there is nothing that can be done, then its not fair on any other business that has had to ensure their policy for customer satisfation has been upheld - like second hand car dealers or Licensed Doormen as an example.
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