Hand Guns - relax the rules?
Discussion
I saw a programme last night about the effects of the banning of hand guns. The ban was brought in following the Dunblaine massacre in the late 1990s. 16 kids died when a man went berserk with several hand guns in a school.
I was uncomfortable with the ban at the time and what I heard last night only confirms my worst suspicions - namely that the illegal use of guns has not been curbed in any way by the ban. In short the only people who have suffered under the ban are the legitimate sports gun enthusiasts.
In fact,the last figures I saw suggested that more people than ever are victims of gun crime and that the number of illegal guns on Britains streets has actually gone up since the ban.
This is a horrible debate to have in the wider community, because of course it is likely to quickly degenerate into a "think of the children" type attack on anyone who thinks the ban on legitimate sports guns being held by licsensed sportsmen/women should be lifted. But given that this is PH, and we get a great standard of debate on here, what do you all think should be done with the ban? A supplemental question would be that since the ban has not removed ilegal guns from the streets what measures should the Govt take to afford the kind of protection to the community that was origionally hoped for by the imposition of the ban?
Andy
I was uncomfortable with the ban at the time and what I heard last night only confirms my worst suspicions - namely that the illegal use of guns has not been curbed in any way by the ban. In short the only people who have suffered under the ban are the legitimate sports gun enthusiasts.
In fact,the last figures I saw suggested that more people than ever are victims of gun crime and that the number of illegal guns on Britains streets has actually gone up since the ban.
This is a horrible debate to have in the wider community, because of course it is likely to quickly degenerate into a "think of the children" type attack on anyone who thinks the ban on legitimate sports guns being held by licsensed sportsmen/women should be lifted. But given that this is PH, and we get a great standard of debate on here, what do you all think should be done with the ban? A supplemental question would be that since the ban has not removed ilegal guns from the streets what measures should the Govt take to afford the kind of protection to the community that was origionally hoped for by the imposition of the ban?
Andy
Yugguy said:
I'd like a gun for when I'm no longer physically able to defend myself. I'd like a gun for my Dad so he could have blown the living crap out of the 6 foot knife-wielding skinhead that broke into his house.
thats not very christian is it?
or was the intention to kill him so he could be born again
>> Edited by rich1231 on Tuesday 14th February 09:57
It's a characteristic British farce that our Olympic hopefuls have to travel to South Africa to hone their skills.
For a country which ran the worthwhile world for a couple of hundred years, one might have imagined it not to be beyond the wit of 21st century man to organise a secure system of training for the nation's sporting marksmen.
It is literally pathetic.
For a country which ran the worthwhile world for a couple of hundred years, one might have imagined it not to be beyond the wit of 21st century man to organise a secure system of training for the nation's sporting marksmen.
It is literally pathetic.
One of the big reasons the gun lobby in this country never had a chance (apart from the horrific nature of the crime at Dunblane) was unlike the US gun lobby who can give self-defence as a serious reason for owing a lethal weapon, in the UK all that could be given to justify the ownership of lethal weapons was the comparitively frivolous reason of sport.
The only type of firearms legislation we are likely to have for a very long time is more, not less restrictions.
The only type of firearms legislation we are likely to have for a very long time is more, not less restrictions.
I was a member of a gun club and used to shoot handguns. A significant percentage of the club's membership was serving and ex-police officers. The level of discipline expected of members was incredibly high - absolutely no fecking about and no nutters allowed to join. The rules regarding ownership and storage of guns was more than adequate at the time of Dunblane - the reason that happened was because someone screwed up and allowed someone who should never had been allowed a firearms certificate to have one.
The predictable knee-jerk reaction not only ended a legitimate pursuit for a huge number of law-abiding citizens, it also ruined the businesses and lives of the gun club owners. The people who ran my club had spent a huge amount of money building a great business, only for it to be declared illegal overnight, and with NO compensation!
And what has all this achieved? Absolutely nothing. Today my journey into work was somewhat longer than normal because last night a police woman was shot in Nottingham on the road I normally use. The handgun ban really helped there, didn't it?
The predictable knee-jerk reaction not only ended a legitimate pursuit for a huge number of law-abiding citizens, it also ruined the businesses and lives of the gun club owners. The people who ran my club had spent a huge amount of money building a great business, only for it to be declared illegal overnight, and with NO compensation!
And what has all this achieved? Absolutely nothing. Today my journey into work was somewhat longer than normal because last night a police woman was shot in Nottingham on the road I normally use. The handgun ban really helped there, didn't it?
I can't see any problem with Joe Public owning guns so long as it is under any appropriate regulatory framework ... e.g. applicants suitability is checked, they receive a minimum degree of training from a recognised body, their guns and ammunition are held in a suitably secure manner and they are required to carry an appropriate level of insurance, and apply serious penalties for behaving irresponsibly. Similar frameworks exist for many occupations and for some potentially dangerous hobbies so I can't see any reason why guns should be treated any differently.
p.s. there is no justification for owning guns in the UK for personal defence except in the most extreme cases (e.g. members of the armed forces or the police who are under specific threat when off duty). If people hear a floorboard squeak in the middle of the night and reach for a pistol, they are very much more likely to cause a tragic accident than they are to save their own lives from a real threat. The threat of violent crime in your own home in the UK is very, very low. If you are worried about it, talk to a crime prevention officer. Simple, cheap measures can significantly reduce the risk of burglary. (You could also put stickers on your fence like this one spotted in South Africa "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out".)
p.p.s.
I have no idea what the position is now, but when I was a kid my school had a 25m small bore rifle range under the dining hall, access to an army range and a big safe storing about a dozen each bolt action 303s and 22s and their ammunition. Shortly after I left the school I believe they received some SA80s (I assume modified to fire .22 rounds semi-automatically?). The idea that it is safe and sensible to let a supervised bunch of kids loose on that kit, which it demonstrably is, yet a group of adults can't be trusted to run a hand gun club is absolute madness.
>> Edited by ATG on Tuesday 14th February 10:45
p.s. there is no justification for owning guns in the UK for personal defence except in the most extreme cases (e.g. members of the armed forces or the police who are under specific threat when off duty). If people hear a floorboard squeak in the middle of the night and reach for a pistol, they are very much more likely to cause a tragic accident than they are to save their own lives from a real threat. The threat of violent crime in your own home in the UK is very, very low. If you are worried about it, talk to a crime prevention officer. Simple, cheap measures can significantly reduce the risk of burglary. (You could also put stickers on your fence like this one spotted in South Africa "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out".)
p.p.s.
I have no idea what the position is now, but when I was a kid my school had a 25m small bore rifle range under the dining hall, access to an army range and a big safe storing about a dozen each bolt action 303s and 22s and their ammunition. Shortly after I left the school I believe they received some SA80s (I assume modified to fire .22 rounds semi-automatically?). The idea that it is safe and sensible to let a supervised bunch of kids loose on that kit, which it demonstrably is, yet a group of adults can't be trusted to run a hand gun club is absolute madness.
>> Edited by ATG on Tuesday 14th February 10:45
rich1231 said:
I'd like a gun for when I'm no longer physically able to defend myself. I'd like a gun for my Dad so he could have blown the living crap out of the 6 foot knife-wielding skinhead that broke into his house.
thats not very christian is it?
or was the intention to kill him so he could be born again
And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.
ROCK AND ROLL.
I actually think crime in general would go down in this country if we were allowed to own firearms. OK firearms offences would go up but overall crime would fall and in some cases plumet! ie burgulary and breaking and entering. I peronally would love to own a shotgun and be able to use it to defend myself and property. I would however fill it with salt shots i think as i don't actually want to kill anyone.
Yugguy said:
And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.
ROCK AND ROLL.
I think you'll find that's O.T. and jeebus wouldn't like it.
Jesus wept.
I can't actually believe you people want to relax the laws. Have you been into Swindon town centre on a Saturday? Have you seen the excuses for human-beings in the Burberry caps and Kappa tracksuits? And you want these people to be armed?
There is an increasing amount of paranoid in this country, rich/poor, blacks/whites, blacks/Asians, Muslims/everyone - imagine putting guns in the mix with all that?
I can't actually believe you people want to relax the laws. Have you been into Swindon town centre on a Saturday? Have you seen the excuses for human-beings in the Burberry caps and Kappa tracksuits? And you want these people to be armed?
There is an increasing amount of paranoid in this country, rich/poor, blacks/whites, blacks/Asians, Muslims/everyone - imagine putting guns in the mix with all that?
Yugguy said:
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Blimey if we look back to my churchgoing thread I must be the most blessed person ever.
Lord Summerisle said:
That is good, for believing what you do, we confer upon you a rare gift, these days - a martyr's death.
slapmatt said:
I can't actually believe you people want to relax the laws. Have you been into Swindon town centre on a Saturday? Have you seen the excuses for human-beings in the Burberry caps and Kappa tracksuits? And you want these people to be armed?
From my direct experience of being a gun club member, believe me - these people would never get past the probationary period.
slapmatt said:
There is an increasing amount of paranoid in this country, rich/poor, blacks/whites, blacks/Asians, Muslims/everyone - imagine putting guns in the mix with all that?
The guns are already out there - that's the problem. The only people who don't have them are the ones least likely to use them in anger.
slapmatt said:
Jesus wept.
I can't actually believe you people want to relax the laws. Have you been into Swindon town centre on a Saturday? Have you seen the excuses for human-beings in the Burberry caps and Kappa tracksuits? And you want these people to be armed?
There is an increasing amount of paranoid in this country, rich/poor, blacks/whites, blacks/Asians, Muslims/everyone - imagine putting guns in the mix with all that?
The trick behind the private ownership of handguns working is an effective regulatory framework. In other words, just because somebody owns a handgun, they may not be allowed to carry it on or about their person on a day to day basis without justification and proper licensing. People are licensed to drive vehicles, correct? Use the same procedure with handguns, just make the background checks a bit more effective.
It would send a message to the scrotes.
Effective handgun control - Use two hands and the Weaver stance!
ErnestM
minornut said:
Would more relaxed gun laws have prevented this?
wpc shooting
No, but the current gun laws didn't either; so your point is?
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