Welfare state / dole scrounger musing
Discussion
Now look. I hate the work shy layabouts who claim benefit upon benefit to live a life that's measurably better than a lot of working people who graft, as much as anyone.
They take the piss. We're all offended by this day after day, it's true. Whatever you political machinations, it does appear that the current government relate to the work shy far more than people who get on their bike.
But I don't want to get into a rant about the lazy scum, nor do I want a political discussion. Let's concentrate on this point.
A fair proportion (in my opinion, don't derail the point by defending any benefit claimants you might know who are saints or disabled) are dodgy types. I'm sure we all know some like it, I do. They scrounge, dodge, blag, deal in dodgy goods now and again, and basically shyster their way through life topping up their benefits with cash deals and shady goings on.
A lot of us bemoan the welfare state and call for it's removal, with justifications like 'it will force the lazy sods to work.'
I don't think so.
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
They take the piss. We're all offended by this day after day, it's true. Whatever you political machinations, it does appear that the current government relate to the work shy far more than people who get on their bike.
But I don't want to get into a rant about the lazy scum, nor do I want a political discussion. Let's concentrate on this point.
A fair proportion (in my opinion, don't derail the point by defending any benefit claimants you might know who are saints or disabled) are dodgy types. I'm sure we all know some like it, I do. They scrounge, dodge, blag, deal in dodgy goods now and again, and basically shyster their way through life topping up their benefits with cash deals and shady goings on.
A lot of us bemoan the welfare state and call for it's removal, with justifications like 'it will force the lazy sods to work.'
I don't think so.
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
I'd be more inclined to agree if we paid them all this cash, and the penalties for them then partaking in criminal activities were harsh and a deterrent, but they aren't. So we pay for the 'protection racket', and neither we, nor our property, is particularly safe, and we can't even rely on punishment for those that wrong the hardworking and respectable.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
The modern welfare state traces its roots back to 1945, do you think there was more or less crime prior to WW2 when there was a far smaller welfare state?If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.Fittster said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
The modern welfare state traces its roots back to 1945, do you think there was more or less crime prior to WW2 when there was a far smaller welfare state?If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
I'd recommend the book The Welfare State We're In for an insight into this problem.
Gold said:
Fittster said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
The modern welfare state traces its roots back to 1945, do you think there was more or less crime prior to WW2 when there was a far smaller welfare state?If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.source
Successfull countries have a very small welfare state.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Now look. I hate the work shy layabouts who claim benefit upon benefit to live a life that's measurably better than a lot of working people who graft, as much as anyone.
They take the piss. We're all offended by this day after day, it's true. Whatever you political machinations, it does appear that the current government relate to the work shy far more than people who get on their bike.
But I don't want to get into a rant about the lazy scum, nor do I want a political discussion. Let's concentrate on this point.
A fair proportion (in my opinion, don't derail the point by defending any benefit claimants you might know who are saints or disabled) are dodgy types. I'm sure we all know some like it, I do. They scrounge, dodge, blag, deal in dodgy goods now and again, and basically shyster their way through life topping up their benefits with cash deals and shady goings on.
A lot of us bemoan the welfare state and call for it's removal, with justifications like 'it will force the lazy sods to work.'
I don't think so.
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
It's called "tackling poverty" by Gordon Brown, he spoke about it quite a lot yesterday. It involves taking money away from people who work their balls off and who only just have enough to get by and then giving it to people who only just have enough but do sweet f*ck all, AKA socialism.They take the piss. We're all offended by this day after day, it's true. Whatever you political machinations, it does appear that the current government relate to the work shy far more than people who get on their bike.
But I don't want to get into a rant about the lazy scum, nor do I want a political discussion. Let's concentrate on this point.
A fair proportion (in my opinion, don't derail the point by defending any benefit claimants you might know who are saints or disabled) are dodgy types. I'm sure we all know some like it, I do. They scrounge, dodge, blag, deal in dodgy goods now and again, and basically shyster their way through life topping up their benefits with cash deals and shady goings on.
A lot of us bemoan the welfare state and call for it's removal, with justifications like 'it will force the lazy sods to work.'
I don't think so.
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
[simplistic view]ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.There aren't enough police to cope as it is.
I sympathise with anyone who is at the end of their tether with the money wasted on the work shy, but I fear the alternative could be far worse.
What do you think?
Simple. Spend the money saved, on decent staffing levels for the police, a decent judicial system* and proper 'correctional' facilities. (None of these excuses for prisons we have at the moment)
[/simplistic view]
* ETA. for example, if you're convicted of the same serious crime (theft etc) more than three times, go straight to jail for life.
Edited by monthefish on Wednesday 24th September 16:16
We live in a modern democratic country. Most people work and pay tax. The tax is used, in part, to pay for a welfare system to support those who genuinely need help. There is a small minority who chose not to work or pay tax. Essentially they are an ever-present overhead, and are factored into the running costs.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Love it. This is just what I need, its been a long day and now I have a rant about the dole scrounging scum poor to add to.
Ok so if we get rid of the benefit society I guess I will be paying less tax as I won't be supporting these tens of thousands of workshy layabouts? Correct?.
So if im paying less tax I can afford more security to keep all the goodies im buying with my increased wealth safe, including a fek off big dog to eat the poor.
Im all for it. Whens this going to happen? 18 months?.
Ok so if we get rid of the benefit society I guess I will be paying less tax as I won't be supporting these tens of thousands of workshy layabouts? Correct?.
So if im paying less tax I can afford more security to keep all the goodies im buying with my increased wealth safe, including a fek off big dog to eat the poor.
Im all for it. Whens this going to happen? 18 months?.
Risotto said:
We live in a modern democratic country. Most people work and pay tax. The tax is used, in part, to pay for a welfare system to support those who genuinely need help. There is a small minority who chose not to work or pay tax. Essentially they are an ever-present overhead, and are factored into the running costs.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Trouble is, it would seem that the 'minority' is breeding and expanding faster than the majority that pay for them to live. Herein lie the reason why many are very worried about this - how long can the nation and our economy support this?There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
Sounds like you're describing the USA.ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.Risotto said:
We live in a modern democratic country. Most people work and pay tax. The tax is used, in part, to pay for a welfare system to support those who genuinely need help. There is a small minority who chose not to work or pay tax. Essentially they are an ever-present overhead, and are factored into the running costs.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Yes, but I wonder when that workshy minority become the majority - I cannot believe for a second that the millions that are on some kind of incapacity benefit are genuine - and since when did it become a right for the state (tax payers) to feed and house millions of school leavers who see babies as free meal tickets - it has gone way too far the wrong way, and need severe re-balancing.There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Fittster said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
I reckon a high proportion of the taxes I pay that go to benefit claimants is cash spent in a kind of hideous, national protection racket.
If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your bks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.
The modern welfare state traces its roots back to 1945, do you think there was more or less crime prior to WW2 when there was a far smaller welfare state?If we scrap the welfare state, you can bet your b
ks to a barn dance that crime will go through the roof. Our stuff won't be (relatively) safe anymore. There'll be wholesale robbery, theiving, mugging etc. You think there's crime now? We won't be able to walk the street, I bet you. Forget leaving your car on the drive at night, or in fact anywhere.Risotto said:
We live in a modern democratic country. Most people work and pay tax. The tax is used, in part, to pay for a welfare system to support those who genuinely need help. There is a small minority who chose not to work or pay tax. Essentially they are an ever-present overhead, and are factored into the running costs.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
I get out and about a lot with work and tend to visit a lot of town centres/shopping centres during the daytime, when most people are working (inc me). The number of people who are clearly of working age, seemingly fit and healthy but are obviously not working is truly staggering. There is nothing you can do about this minority.
A proportion of these may work nights or have some genuine reason for not working, but the majority seem to simply be lounging around, happy with their £40 a week and rent paid. In some areas the % of people of working age but not is close to 25%!
This is obviously largely anecdotal, but 'minority' seems a bit of a stretch in many towns.
Edited by Maxf on Wednesday 24th September 16:32
andy400 said:
Risotto said:
We live in a modern democratic country. Most people work and pay tax. The tax is used, in part, to pay for a welfare system to support those who genuinely need help. There is a small minority who chose not to work or pay tax. Essentially they are an ever-present overhead, and are factored into the running costs.
There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
Trouble is, it would seem that the 'minority' is breeding and expanding faster than the majority that pay for them to live. Herein lie the reason why many are very worried about this - how long can the nation and our economy support this?There is nothing you can do about this minority.
People advocate stopping the benefit payments but what would that do? Some of the previous recipients would turn to crime (or increase their current criminal activity). For others, the withdrawal of benefit payments would mean their living standards grew much worse - resulting in even poorer health. Any money saved by stopping benefit payments would just get spent on investigating the resulting increase in crime or on financing the increased demand for healthcare.
Even if a scheme for cutting the cost these people incur could ever be agreed upon, the cost of implementing any such scheme (which would in all likelihood fail) could easily outweigh the savings.
A minority of people will always play the system - they always have and they always will.
Expend enough time/effort/money to discourage the worst of them and accept that the rest are free to do as they please.
The way I see it a lot of us non claimants are planning on jumping ship as soon as weve made enough. This will leave the majority of the nation as poor and benefit cheating / claiming. Labour will be in power for ever as all these will be loving the free ride and the country will gradually decline into a third world state.
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