PH Engineers & product designers.... 3D Printers.
Discussion
We're spending an increasing amoutn on rapid prototypes and it is reaching the point at which we're considering investing in a Z-Corp 3D printer:
http://www.zcorp.com/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter...
Whilst its easy to read the "advantages" page on the manufacturers website, its not so easy to find anyone with experience of such a machine at work.
So, do any PHers have experience of these?
http://www.zcorp.com/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter...
Whilst its easy to read the "advantages" page on the manufacturers website, its not so easy to find anyone with experience of such a machine at work.
So, do any PHers have experience of these?
One of my leaving presents was made by one of those. A scale model of a T Class SSN and V Class SSBN, which sits proudly on my desk. One thing I would say is that the surface finish is a little coarse and they do struggle with fine details. Great for getting an idea of scale though, and also for crude user testing.
I would suggest you give them some examples of what you do and get them to "print" them for you and make a judgement based on that.
I would suggest you give them some examples of what you do and get them to "print" them for you and make a judgement based on that.
Seen some parts but never used one. They can make pretty parts but structurally questionable for functional testing. Looks like the 450 is restricted to one material - and what is in that material they don't seem to tell you!
If you need to do parts with various colours, and perhaps logos etc. built in, for more form/ergonomic testing it may be a good idea. I think the build layers are pretty fine so good detail. The new elastomeric materials can be useful but it looks like that 450 can't use them.
We mould our products though in Lexan, so we get FDMs done in PC most of the time, and we find it's a very good way to test our parts. It's the closest thing to production materials.
If you need to do parts with various colours, and perhaps logos etc. built in, for more form/ergonomic testing it may be a good idea. I think the build layers are pretty fine so good detail. The new elastomeric materials can be useful but it looks like that 450 can't use them.
We mould our products though in Lexan, so we get FDMs done in PC most of the time, and we find it's a very good way to test our parts. It's the closest thing to production materials.
tekta said:
Seen some parts but never used one. They can make pretty parts but structurally questionable for functional testing. Looks like the 450 is restricted to one material - and what is in that material they don't seem to tell you!
If you need to do parts with various colours, and perhaps logos etc. built in, for more form/ergonomic testing it may be a good idea. I think the build layers are pretty fine so good detail. The new elastomeric materials can be useful but it looks like that 450 can't use them.
We mould our products though in Lexan, so we get FDMs done in PC most of the time, and we find it's a very good way to test our parts. It's the closest thing to production materials.
The material is like the stuff you put flower arrangements into, only stiffer. Structural strength is poor.If you need to do parts with various colours, and perhaps logos etc. built in, for more form/ergonomic testing it may be a good idea. I think the build layers are pretty fine so good detail. The new elastomeric materials can be useful but it looks like that 450 can't use them.
We mould our products though in Lexan, so we get FDMs done in PC most of the time, and we find it's a very good way to test our parts. It's the closest thing to production materials.
Currently we have parts made either by SLA or SLS. The SLA parts tend to be quite small and delicate and I dont think we could achieve this with a 3D printer. The SLS parts tend to be larger parts for enclosures etc. and the surface finish isnt that great but it is strong enough to tap etc.
Incidentally, the entry level ZCorp 3D printer comes in at around £12k.
Incidentally, the entry level ZCorp 3D printer comes in at around £12k.
Yes I think I was wrong about the build layers on the Z-corp, they are quite coarse.
Have you tried FDMs goochie? They can do PC, ABS and PC/ABS, in black too, whereas you are restricted to Nylons for SLS. The surface is still a bit steppy but we've found the accuracy better than SLS. Have a look at http://www.materialise.com/materialise/view/en/916... for a comparison of technologies.
For very fine detail we've been impressed by the models from this place
http://www.ipfl.co.uk/Rapid_Prototyping.html
Their Objet machine can do elastomeric materials, and blend them with rigid ones!
No idea on price for the machines though, we use bureaus, not enough volume here to justify a RP machine yet
The Z-corp looks nice but seems a jack of all trades/master of none. I doubt that it's strong enough to tap reliably.
Have you tried FDMs goochie? They can do PC, ABS and PC/ABS, in black too, whereas you are restricted to Nylons for SLS. The surface is still a bit steppy but we've found the accuracy better than SLS. Have a look at http://www.materialise.com/materialise/view/en/916... for a comparison of technologies.
For very fine detail we've been impressed by the models from this place
http://www.ipfl.co.uk/Rapid_Prototyping.html
Their Objet machine can do elastomeric materials, and blend them with rigid ones!
No idea on price for the machines though, we use bureaus, not enough volume here to justify a RP machine yet
The Z-corp looks nice but seems a jack of all trades/master of none. I doubt that it's strong enough to tap reliably.Edited by tekta on Thursday 2nd October 10:43
This may be out of date now but when I was using them at uni a couple of years ago a SLA or SLS set up would easily cost you £250,000. The cheaper office based 3d printers were just starting to become popular but the parts the produced weren't anywhere near as durable. The smaller machines we had used wax if I remember correctly.
The is also some work to be done on the parts once they have been made. SLA systems create support structures to support the part during the build which then have to be removed. SLS systems are formed in powder so support themselves, but you have to clean them out carefully so the powder doesn't go everywhere.
You also have to consider the time it will take getting the parts set up for printing. You can't just click print and let it get on with it unfortunately.
Again, this information is all from 2006 so the game has probably moved on a bit, but hopefully it is helpful.
The is also some work to be done on the parts once they have been made. SLA systems create support structures to support the part during the build which then have to be removed. SLS systems are formed in powder so support themselves, but you have to clean them out carefully so the powder doesn't go everywhere.
You also have to consider the time it will take getting the parts set up for printing. You can't just click print and let it get on with it unfortunately.
Again, this information is all from 2006 so the game has probably moved on a bit, but hopefully it is helpful.
Agree we've considered buying one several times, and in the end couldn't justify it, even when (as we are a consultancy) we could offer it as a service externally. Issues are several fold:
You tend to choose the prototyping technology according the parts being made (combination of speed/surface quality/tolerance/material etc), there's no "one machine fits all" solution.
RP parts tend to take a fair amount post-processing - removing sprues/ lightly smoothing prime surfaces and the like. It's not economical to have trained engineers (or even skilled technicians) doing this in-house. Far cheaper to pay for it to be done outside than stump up the labour.
Factor in the cost of training/ support / maintainence / capex etc there really isn't much in it between in-house and external, unless you are doing a lot of parts.
You tend to choose the prototyping technology according the parts being made (combination of speed/surface quality/tolerance/material etc), there's no "one machine fits all" solution.
RP parts tend to take a fair amount post-processing - removing sprues/ lightly smoothing prime surfaces and the like. It's not economical to have trained engineers (or even skilled technicians) doing this in-house. Far cheaper to pay for it to be done outside than stump up the labour.
Factor in the cost of training/ support / maintainence / capex etc there really isn't much in it between in-house and external, unless you are doing a lot of parts.
Funny you should mention this as my week has been full of creating a business case for the z corp 510.
I have a stratsys prodigy plus fdm machine which has been in use here for 5 years or so.
It realy depends on what you are modelling and how often it is in use. We currently run our FDM for just over 8 hours per working day. the resolution is OK but it can strugle with thin wall sections.
The Z Corp kit all sounds good, but I think it could get a little messy. I will find this out next week as I am due to run a part on one of there test machines.
If finaces will strectch I would try to buy a Viper from 3d systems, as it looks like the package price will be about £110K. The resolutiion and material choice is much better. The z corp will produce parts far quicker and cheaper than any other system. I am lucky in that I can buy both as neither the Viper or z corp 510 will meet all our needs
Things i would try to find out before commiting are.
Is it really possible to complete the parts in the time they say?
Is it really office freindly?
How much does a service contract cost? (the machine will break and parts will be expensive)
Do you have the skills needed to be able to handle the software. Yeah it wont be rocket science but and understanding of CAD will be very useful.
Is you CAD data of good enough quality to produce parts from with no fixing of data. If it is not extra software may be needed.
If you would like to talk further email me
I have a stratsys prodigy plus fdm machine which has been in use here for 5 years or so.
It realy depends on what you are modelling and how often it is in use. We currently run our FDM for just over 8 hours per working day. the resolution is OK but it can strugle with thin wall sections.
The Z Corp kit all sounds good, but I think it could get a little messy. I will find this out next week as I am due to run a part on one of there test machines.
If finaces will strectch I would try to buy a Viper from 3d systems, as it looks like the package price will be about £110K. The resolutiion and material choice is much better. The z corp will produce parts far quicker and cheaper than any other system. I am lucky in that I can buy both as neither the Viper or z corp 510 will meet all our needs
Things i would try to find out before commiting are.
Is it really possible to complete the parts in the time they say?
Is it really office freindly?
How much does a service contract cost? (the machine will break and parts will be expensive)
Do you have the skills needed to be able to handle the software. Yeah it wont be rocket science but and understanding of CAD will be very useful.
Is you CAD data of good enough quality to produce parts from with no fixing of data. If it is not extra software may be needed.
If you would like to talk further email me
Currently we find it much more cost effective to have the RP made in China and sent by TNT. Even after all that, it is significantly cheaper than using a local RP company.
We have a small office in China so can easily get around the potential language barriers etc.
We were surprised when we looked at the costs - given the expensive part of RP is the machine rather than the labour, but I guess their overheads are significantly less.
We have a small office in China so can easily get around the potential language barriers etc.
We were surprised when we looked at the costs - given the expensive part of RP is the machine rather than the labour, but I guess their overheads are significantly less.
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