Redundancy during maternity leave
Discussion
I don't want this thread to turn into a maternity leave / women bashing thread, but there are some knowledgeable people on here …
My wife is on maternity leave and we have a 13 day old daughter. She got a call yesterday inviting her into a presentation that was being held last night, which she couldn’t attend and she got an update from her line manager by phone afterwards.
The crux is that 45 people’s jobs are at risk. The majority are where they are downsizing departments where roles are identical – 12 down to 8 for example. No problem so far.
She is the manager of a department of 5. This whole department will no longer exist, but a suspiciously similar department of identical size and structure will be created, albeit with different job titles. The job roles are very similar.
Over the phone she has been told she will need to apply and attend assessment centres / interviews for one of these new roles. If she is unsuccessful she will be made redundant.
I’ve hit google and found something called “The Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999” where section 10 seems to suggest that they should be offering her this new role automatically.
We could do with some stress reduction!
My wife is on maternity leave and we have a 13 day old daughter. She got a call yesterday inviting her into a presentation that was being held last night, which she couldn’t attend and she got an update from her line manager by phone afterwards.
The crux is that 45 people’s jobs are at risk. The majority are where they are downsizing departments where roles are identical – 12 down to 8 for example. No problem so far.
She is the manager of a department of 5. This whole department will no longer exist, but a suspiciously similar department of identical size and structure will be created, albeit with different job titles. The job roles are very similar.
Over the phone she has been told she will need to apply and attend assessment centres / interviews for one of these new roles. If she is unsuccessful she will be made redundant.
I’ve hit google and found something called “The Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999” where section 10 seems to suggest that they should be offering her this new role automatically.
We could do with some stress reduction!
Call ACAS immediately. They will advise you of your legal rights and provide non-legal representation to the employer on behalf of the employee if required. ACAS are generally very good, but just give them the facts and not the emotion - they have heard every 'story' going and will instantly walk away if they think things are being exaggerated.
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461
From the ACAS website:
When are redundancies 'unfair'?
You will be found to have been unfairly dismissed if you were unfairly selected for redundancy:
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461
From the ACAS website:
When are redundancies 'unfair'?
You will be found to have been unfairly dismissed if you were unfairly selected for redundancy:
- for asserting a statutory employment right
- parental leave (see Working parents) or maternity-related grounds
- because you work part-time (Part-time work)
- because you are a fixed-term worker (Employment contracts)
- for exercising or seeking to exercise the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary (Discipline) or grievance *hearing (Grievances)
- requesting flexible working arrangements
- for a reason relating to rights under the Working Time Regulations 1998
- for a reason relating to rights under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998
- for a reason relating to the Tax Credits Act 2002
- for Whistle-blowing
- for participation in trade union activities, for membership or non-membership of a trade union and in respect of trade union recognition or derecognition
- for carrying out duties as an employee representative or candidate for election for purposes of consultation on redundancies or business transfers
- for taking part in an election of an employee representative for collective redundancy purposes
- for taking action on health and safety grounds as a designated or recognised health and safety representative, or as an employee in particular circumstances
- for taking part (or proposing to take part) in consultation on specified health and safety matters or taking part in elections for representatives of employee safety
- for taking lawfully organised industrial action lasting eight weeks or less (or more than eight weeks in certain circumstances)
- for refusing or proposing to refuse to do shop work or betting work on Sundays (England and Wales only)
- for performing or proposing to perform the duties of a occupational pension scheme trustee
- for performing or proposing to perform the duties of a workforce representative for the purposes of the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 1999
- because you are a fixed-term worker (Employment contracts)
- for exercising or seeking to exercise the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary (Discipline) or grievance hearing (Grievances)
- requesting flexible working arrangements
- for a reason relating to rights under the Working Time Regulations 1998
- for a reason relating to rights under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998
- for a reason relating to the Tax Credits Act 2002
- for Whistle-blowing
- for participation in trade union activities, for membership or non-membership of a trade union and in respect of trade union recognition or derecognition
- for carrying out duties as an employee representative or candidate for election for purposes of consultation on redundancies or business transfers
- for taking part in an election of an employee representative for collective redundancy purposes
- for taking action on health and safety grounds as a designated or recognised health and safety representative, or as an employee in particular circumstances
- for taking part (or proposing to take part) in consultation on specified health and safety matters or taking part in elections for representatives of employee safety
- for taking lawfully organised industrial action lasting eight weeks or less (or more than eight weeks in certain circumstances)
- for refusing or proposing to refuse to do shop work or betting work on Sundays (England and Wales only)
- for performing or proposing to perform the duties of a occupational pension scheme trustee
- for performing or proposing to perform the duties of a workforce representative for the purposes of the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 1999
Edited by john_r on Tuesday 11th November 10:54
Yes she must be offered any suitable vacancy in preference to anyone else. So to make her redundant in these circumstances would be a very 'brave' act by any employer - if a suitable vacancy exists and she is not offered it then it is automatic unfair dismissal.
Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
I will have a chat with the OH who is also on ML, but works in a very good HR department (i.e. never lost a tribunal in 15 years). Her boss is spot on legally, so will ask her to have a chat.
If the "new department" is very similar, it sounds like it could be an attempt to reduce out-goings, without paying redundancy pay. People could feel pressured into taking lower paid job, just to keep job in current climate.
But as above, ACAS is a very good place to start.
If the "new department" is very similar, it sounds like it could be an attempt to reduce out-goings, without paying redundancy pay. People could feel pressured into taking lower paid job, just to keep job in current climate.
But as above, ACAS is a very good place to start.
You can be made redundant during maternity leave, but it has to be genuine and the employer must not select a person for redundancy because of the maternity leave. The employer must offer alternative employment if there is any suitable vacancy. There is pretty much a presumption at industrial tribunals that making a woman on maternity leave redundant is unfair dismissal, so most employers are loath to do it.
In my last year at another law firm, my group had an imbecile as its head who when he needed to make redundancies selected only women, including two on maternity leave. He cost the firm as much in unfair dismissal payments as he saved in salaries.
In my last year at another law firm, my group had an imbecile as its head who when he needed to make redundancies selected only women, including two on maternity leave. He cost the firm as much in unfair dismissal payments as he saved in salaries.
Certainly not what you want at such a time. However 45 people are being made redundant so I can't see how it is "fair" on another person losing her job because she is exempt due to being on maternity leave. She should be part of the redundancy process along with everyone else.
Mind you I've long given up thinking of employment laws as "fair"
Mind you I've long given up thinking of employment laws as "fair"
My wife was made redundant a couple of months after returning, along with her boss. Neither was replaced, so fair enough. Sometimes being away from work for a few months demonstrates to your employer that they can cope without you - that's life.
On a personal level, dealing with a newborn baby is hard enough without having to fight for your job.
On a business level, as an employer you'd have to be completely nuts to make someone redundant whilst they're on maternity leave.
If the employer is this inept I'm not surprised the business is struggling.
On a personal level, dealing with a newborn baby is hard enough without having to fight for your job.
On a business level, as an employer you'd have to be completely nuts to make someone redundant whilst they're on maternity leave.
If the employer is this inept I'm not surprised the business is struggling.
Zod said:
You can be made redundant during maternity leave, but it has to be genuine and the employer must not select a person for redundancy because of the maternity leave. The employer must offer alternative employment if there is any suitable vacancy. There is pretty much a presumption at industrial tribunals that making a woman on maternity leave redundant is unfair dismissal, so most employers are loath to do it.
In my last year at another law firm, my group had an imbecile as its head who when he needed to make redundancies selected only women, including two on maternity leave. He cost the firm as much in unfair dismissal payments as he saved in salaries.
In my last year at another law firm, my group had an imbecile as its head who when he needed to make redundancies selected only women, including two on maternity leave. He cost the firm as much in unfair dismissal payments as he saved in salaries.
Great work.
Partners in Law Firms are often very bright, but hopeless in the real world!!
siscar said:
Yes she must be offered any suitable vacancy in preference to anyone else. So to make her redundant in these circumstances would be a very 'brave' act by any employer - if a suitable vacancy exists and she is not offered it then it is automatic unfair dismissal.
Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
This is true. They may well use the interview process to determine if the new post is suitable for her but what they may not do is offer it to somebody else who is better qualified etc assuming that the post is "suitable".Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
MrsV6 went through a very similar experience whilst on ML with our youngest. Suffice to say that it became a long, stressful process when her employers seemingly did everything in their power to flout all the HR-related rules going. Turned out ok in the end, thanks to a huge amount of hard work by MrsV6 and her travelling the breadth of the country several times (whilst on ML!) for her to source her own new (and better) job within the company.
Suffice to say that had that job not come off, the next step would have been a tribunal; plenty of independent expert advice we were given indicated that the company didn't have a leg to stand on.
The one piece of advice I would give you now is to make a record of every communication (letter / email / phonecall / face-to-face) that she has with the company; it may prove to be a lifeline in the coming months.
swerni said:
siscar said:
Yes she must be offered any suitable vacancy in preference to anyone else. So to make her redundant in these circumstances would be a very 'brave' act by any employer - if a suitable vacancy exists and she is not offered it then it is automatic unfair dismissal.
Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
sorry but why would she get preferential treatment?Contacting ACAS is a good suggestion.
Every round of redundancies I have been through (and there have been many) has been based on a points system.
I was under the impression that they couldn't hold the fact she was on maternity leave against her, but on the other hand it gave her no automatic rights to a job.
If they are closing the department then everyone will have to apply for the jobs and they need to be treated fairly and marked for suitability against a set criteria.
You don't have to like it but that's the facts.
Greenie said:
I can't see how it is "fair" on another person losing her job because she is exempt due to being on maternity leave. She should be part of the redundancy process along with everyone else.
Mind you I've long given up thinking of employment laws as "fair"
Shes not exempt you can make anyone redundant, she has to go through the same proccess to see if she has a job at the end of the leave.Mind you I've long given up thinking of employment laws as "fair"
However I get a feeling a large percentage of people on maternity leave hope to get the 'redundancy' call. Take it take the money and look at a long holiday watching cash in the attic. This probably gives employers the idea that if you offer a woman on maternity leave the option they will bite your hand off making the whole proccess easier..
badgers_back said:
However I get a feeling a large percentage of people on maternity leave hope to get the 'redundancy' call. Take it take the money and look at a long holiday watching cash in the attic. This probably gives employers the idea that if you offer a woman on maternity leave the option they will bite your hand off making the whole proccess easier..
Not sure if that's entirely true, but a fair proportion of people on Maternity 'leave' have no intention of going back anyway, so a redundnacy payment would be a nice little bonus.Edited by G'kar on Tuesday 11th November 11:18
G'kar said:
badgers_back said:
However I get a feeling a large percentage of people on maternity leave hope to get the 'redundancy' call. Take it take the money and look at a long holiday watching cash in the attic. This probably gives employers the idea that if you offer a woman on maternity leave the option they will bite your hand off making the whole proccess easier..
Not sure if that's entirely true, but a fair proportion of people on Maternity 'leave' have no intention of going back anyway, so a redundnacy payment would be a nice little bonus.Edited by G'kar on Tuesday 11th November 11:18
Slightly off topic but I read an article about one of the positives of the poor economic times and redundancy effecting families being that one parent may now be at home with the children as opposed to both parents working and I agreed with it.
My wife stopped working three months back and the improvement to our family life has been outstanding. Yes I can't get the AP Brake upgrade to my Ultima (yet) but the kids are learning to swim + other activities, aren't in day care from 8am to 6pm and a whole host of other things (plus I get my shirts ironed
)
Back to topic, if your wife doesn't go back to work it's not the end of the world but could be the start of one just as nice if not nicer.
My wife stopped working three months back and the improvement to our family life has been outstanding. Yes I can't get the AP Brake upgrade to my Ultima (yet) but the kids are learning to swim + other activities, aren't in day care from 8am to 6pm and a whole host of other things (plus I get my shirts ironed
)Back to topic, if your wife doesn't go back to work it's not the end of the world but could be the start of one just as nice if not nicer.
Ok, I just attended a seminar on Redundancy and hopefully may be able to shed some light here.
For starters a person is NOT made redundant a role is. A company can create a similar role and invite people to apply for these roles and also ask if there are staff who would wish to take voluntary redundancy. Maternity leave personnel is a risky area, your wife should be invited as a priority to attend an interview for this similar role if the company is wise. The comany CANOT discriminate against the fact that she would not be able to take up the role for some months.
Most personnel going through this are subject to point scoring. You are entitled to see this and all records they hold on you in the HR file, aske to see them if you are in any doubt you are being treated fairly.
If the role is not offered to your wife then they are obliged to either find an alternative or offer redundancy. If she is not offered the role then definitly demand all the paperwork as to why this has not happened. ACAS will be able to determine if you have been discriminated against.
One thing to note, redundancies in SME's are never good and can lead to more further down the field, especially in the current climate. Is the package being offered a good on or just the Statutory minimum?
Please excuse any typos I have missed, its a busy day in the office and I shouldn't even be on here!
For starters a person is NOT made redundant a role is. A company can create a similar role and invite people to apply for these roles and also ask if there are staff who would wish to take voluntary redundancy. Maternity leave personnel is a risky area, your wife should be invited as a priority to attend an interview for this similar role if the company is wise. The comany CANOT discriminate against the fact that she would not be able to take up the role for some months.
Most personnel going through this are subject to point scoring. You are entitled to see this and all records they hold on you in the HR file, aske to see them if you are in any doubt you are being treated fairly.
If the role is not offered to your wife then they are obliged to either find an alternative or offer redundancy. If she is not offered the role then definitly demand all the paperwork as to why this has not happened. ACAS will be able to determine if you have been discriminated against.
One thing to note, redundancies in SME's are never good and can lead to more further down the field, especially in the current climate. Is the package being offered a good on or just the Statutory minimum?
Please excuse any typos I have missed, its a busy day in the office and I shouldn't even be on here!
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