Grammar question
Discussion
Hi all,
A quick question for all the grammar junkies out there (of which I know there are a few!). I'm currently working in Canada and have noticed that it is common practice over here to use a comma before the word "and". I seem to remember from my days at school that "and" is a conjunction and should therefore not be preceded by a comma.
Am I right?
Cheers,
Ben
A quick question for all the grammar junkies out there (of which I know there are a few!). I'm currently working in Canada and have noticed that it is common practice over here to use a comma before the word "and". I seem to remember from my days at school that "and" is a conjunction and should therefore not be preceded by a comma.
Am I right?
Cheers,
Ben
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
hugoagogo said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
well that answered my question!! Thanks common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
hugoagogo said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
Is this where we discuss the use of commas before 'but'?common in american english, not so common in british, but not really wrong or right anywhere, if that helps
no, this is where we discuss lack of capital letters or full stops
I think that "not really right or wrong anywhere" is an independent clause, so the comma is OK
could have done with an "it's" I suppose, but there wasn't one at the beginning either
I think that "not really right or wrong anywhere" is an independent clause, so the comma is OK
could have done with an "it's" I suppose, but there wasn't one at the beginning either
Edited by hugoagogo on Wednesday 12th November 07:55
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
Eric Mc said:
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
hence me saying "very few hard and fast rules"Edited by hugoagogo on Wednesday 12th November 08:16
Eric Mc said:
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
Ain't that the truth. People don't understand why certain grammar rules are applied, or how these rules can be broken but be broken "within the rules". English is a language of exceptions and is actually very versatile. That's what makes it such a fascinating language. We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
Eric Mc said:
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
Yes, you're right. I review lots of documents as part of my job and it's appalling how bad the spelling and grammar is. I don't mean that in a pedantic way - I literally can't understand most of them!The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
What I would say is to learn all the basic rules first, but then use these together with your judgement. I've lost count of the amount of jilted unreadable prose that I read because someone's sat there thinking of the rules rather than what makes flowing, logical sense. Another good way to learn how to write is to learn by example - read a lot of good, well written books, magazines and newspapers and pay attention to the grammar.
hugoagogo said:
Eric Mc said:
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
hence me saying "very few hard and fast rules"Edited by hugoagogo on Wednesday 12th November 08:16
However, as I said in my post, lack of many clear cut rules should mean that the student should spend more time learning the rules that are there.
Eric Mc said:
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
I would have put a comma before "or" in the above sentence, as there is an obvious pause at that point when you read it. Would that have bee wrong? Probably not as it's recognised in grammar as the "Oxford Comma".The important point is that people should be aware of the various rules and be aware of those cicumstances when they don't apply, or where they can be bent a little.
For far too long, people have gone through an education system where they were not taught about these rules or, if they were made aware of the rules, they were taught that they didn't matter.
We are now surrounded by pepole who, frankly, can't write a coherent, unambigous sentence or who can't express themselves effectively in their own language.
RobM77 said:
What I would say is to learn all the basic rules first, but then use these together with your judgement. I've lost count of the amount of jilted unreadable prose that I read because someone's sat there thinking of the rules rather than what makes flowing, logical sense.
Foreigners learn English by learning the basic rules, then they're taught the exceptions. The exceptions take a lot longer to learn than the basics, because there are many more exceptions than there are rules! It's actually very interesting to ask non-native speakers of English how they learned the language - they all curse us for making it up as we go along. 
RobM77 said:
Another good way to learn how to write is to learn by example - read a lot of good, well written books, magazines and newspapers and pay attention to the grammar.
It's the best way. But that's just the problem these days - even newspapers, magazines and books can't be relied upon for flawless grammar and spelling.Eric Mc said:
hugoagogo said:
Eric Mc said:
There are lots of rules in English grammsr but there are also lots of exceptions to those rules. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that general rules and principles don't exist, however.
hence me saying "very few hard and fast rules"Edited by hugoagogo on Wednesday 12th November 08:16
However, as I said in my post, lack of many clear cut rules should mean that the student should spend more time learning the rules that are there.
edit: yeah, wot she said above
Edited by hugoagogo on Wednesday 12th November 08:32
SGirl said:
RobM77 said:
What I would say is to learn all the basic rules first, but then use these together with your judgement. I've lost count of the amount of jilted unreadable prose that I read because someone's sat there thinking of the rules rather than what makes flowing, logical sense.
Foreigners learn English by learning the basic rules, then they're taught the exceptions. The exceptions take a lot longer to learn than the basics, because there are many more exceptions than there are rules! It's actually very interesting to ask non-native speakers of English how they learned the language - they all curse us for making it up as we go along. Yes, there are a ludicrous number of exceptions in English! English is not as logical as a language like French or German. Exposure to the language is probably the best way.SGirl said:
RobM77 said:
Another good way to learn how to write is to learn by example - read a lot of good, well written books, magazines and newspapers and pay attention to the grammar.
It's the best way. But that's just the problem these days - even newspapers, magazines and books can't be relied upon for flawless grammar and spelling.
Car wise, I'd recommend EVO magazine, although sadly they've taken a dive into American English of late, which is a shame. Newspaper wise, the Times or Telegraph are pretty good. Most decent books are well written these days, with the exception of autobiographies, which are often riddled with poor grammer and spelling (not enough proof reading!). For the spoken word, Radio 4 is pretty good.Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff