Psychology question, remembering stuff that isn't there?
Discussion
I've been interested in this subject for years, more so recently as I have been learning to play Bridge.
To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
singlecoil said:
I've been interested in this subject for years, more so recently as I have been learning to play Bridge.
To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
you ahve described two subtly but distinctly different problems.To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
1. Thereis a finite set of 52 cards. Subtracting the cards from the set that have been played to leave a mental list of cards which have not is a relatively simple task. I'm sure with practice it could be achieved relatively easily if one took it seriously and wasn't a complete wazzock.
2. The 'kitchen' example is clearly different. The set of items in your kitchen (unless you're a complete OCD case) will vary considerably, and the list (comparable to the played cards in bridge) will vary. This makes the task harder as 'getting it right' can only be done if you define both lists first. Simply staring at the cupboards won't tell you if you are going to need tumeric this week if you are having a currey on wednesday if there is none in the cupboard. Sure it's missing, but so are fenugrek, basil, olives, peaches, ugli fruit and star anise - none of which you need. i.e. with an undefined set, you would have to buy the set of all items (better get to tesco extra) to be sure you buy all the things you have run out of...
bored yet?
singlecoil said:
I've been interested in this subject for years, more so recently as I have been learning to play Bridge.
To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
the way I see it is, your brain has a clever way of noticing small details that you wouldn't automatically think about.....for example....To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
If you leave a room in your house with every 'just so', then re-enter it later after somebody has moved a couple of things about, you will probably be alerted to this. The most miniscule of changes could alert you.
So, if you could use this 'sixth sense' in an alternative way by be aware of what cards have not come out of the pack, it may aid you slightly.
It's an awareness thing, not necessarily a memory thing.
I would suspect that the brain does the calculations and inserts the result into your memory. It's like multi-tasking - this has been proven to be an illusion - you are actually processing the information sequentially, not in parallel it just appears the other way.
With me both Bridge and shopping list making are in the concious mind - I conciously work out the cards or the food. I'm sure with practise both would become more and more subconcious, like correcting oversteer whilst having a conversation, or playing an instrument in time without counting.
With me both Bridge and shopping list making are in the concious mind - I conciously work out the cards or the food. I'm sure with practise both would become more and more subconcious, like correcting oversteer whilst having a conversation, or playing an instrument in time without counting.
RobM77 said:
I would suspect that the brain does the calculations and inserts the result into your memory. It's like multi-tasking - this has been proven to be an illusion - you are actually processing the information sequentially, not in parallel it just appears the other way.
Not necessairly. Problem incubation studies suggest that some processing occurs subconsciously and thus in parallel with conscious processing. I agree that its an issue of attentional divide/switching though..To the OP - best bet I suggest would be a mnemonic - thats how a lot of good card players remember whats been played and whats to come. I suspect that is could be more complex in Bridge than say Poker - I personally never bother with cards belwo a certain value as my memory isn't that good for these things..
Psychobert said:
RobM77 said:
I would suspect that the brain does the calculations and inserts the result into your memory. It's like multi-tasking - this has been proven to be an illusion - you are actually processing the information sequentially, not in parallel it just appears the other way.
Not necessairly. Problem incubation studies suggest that some processing occurs subconsciously and thus in parallel with conscious processing. I agree that its an issue of attentional divide/switching though..To the OP - best bet I suggest would be a mnemonic - thats how a lot of good card players remember whats been played and whats to come. I suspect that is could be more complex in Bridge than say Poker - I personally never bother with cards belwo a certain value as my memory isn't that good for these things..
mr_tony said:
1. Thereis a finite set of 52 cards. Subtracting the cards from the set that have been played to leave a mental list of cards which have not is a relatively simple task. I'm sure with practice it could be achieved relatively easily if one took it seriously and wasn't a complete wazzock.
Your name is Ron Klinger AICMFPCara Van Man said:
It's an awareness thing, not necessarily a memory thing.
Pretty much my thinking. I suppose having OCD helps. Or what HR call "attention to detail".That is probably how it works in the kitchen. You always have particular fruit in a bowl. The bowl is missing something orange-coloured but the apples and pears are there. Ding!
Cara Van Man said:
the way I see it is, your brain has a clever way of noticing small details that you wouldn't automatically think about.....for example....
If you leave a room in your house with every 'just so', then re-enter it later after somebody has moved a couple of things about, you will probably be alerted to this. The most miniscule of changes could alert you.
Personally, I think everyone's brains are wired up differently.If you leave a room in your house with every 'just so', then re-enter it later after somebody has moved a couple of things about, you will probably be alerted to this. The most miniscule of changes could alert you.
e.g. If I left a room neat & tidy and came back to it to find some things had been moved (but were still neat & tidy) I don't think I'd notice unless I'd specifically & consciously placed everything in particular positions.
It's like losing keys. Some people do it all the time as they attach no particular significance to a set of keys, plonk them down somewhere and then promptly forget where. Personally, I hardly ever lose keys mostly as a result of attaching quite a high significance to them (thus remembering where I last saw them) and partially by deliberately only putting them down in a small number of "usual" places because I attach a high significance to them.
My memory for grocery shopping is atrocious, therefore I try to keep a list going on paper, adding to it as I discover things that are needed. If I try to rely on memory when in the supermarket I'll come back with (a) half the stuff missing and (b) lots of extra random stuff that caught my eye on the way around the aisles...
I don't play cards for money either. Which explains why I still have a roof over my head
singlecoil said:
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
Yes it can definitely be enhanced with practise, it all sort of slots in so that before you play your first card you have a rough idea of where everything is, then you sort of count down in your head as the points and cards appear, you rework your thinking to adjust when you see the cards.The old dears that play swear that by playing bridge it has kept the grey cells ticking over and helped them retain their memory.
Shopping list, we have a massive cupboard where we keep all food, the top shelf is spare supplies of things that have a long shelf life, and I am pretty good at visualising if we have something or not in the cupboard whilst out shopping. I do keep a list of unusual items (I may only buy once a year.)that need replacing though.
Edited by Tuscan Tart on Thursday 27th November 11:29
pdV6 said:
Cara Van Man said:
the way I see it is, your brain has a clever way of noticing small details that you wouldn't automatically think about.....for example....
If you leave a room in your house with every 'just so', then re-enter it later after somebody has moved a couple of things about, you will probably be alerted to this. The most miniscule of changes could alert you.
Personally, I think everyone's brains are wired up differently.If you leave a room in your house with every 'just so', then re-enter it later after somebody has moved a couple of things about, you will probably be alerted to this. The most miniscule of changes could alert you.
e.g. If I left a room neat & tidy and came back to it to find some things had been moved (but were still neat & tidy) I don't think I'd notice unless I'd specifically & consciously placed everything in particular positions.
It's like losing keys. Some people do it all the time as they attach no particular significance to a set of keys, plonk them down somewhere and then promptly forget where. Personally, I hardly ever lose keys mostly as a result of attaching quite a high significance to them (thus remembering where I last saw them) and partially by deliberately only putting them down in a small number of "usual" places because I attach a high significance to them.
My memory for grocery shopping is atrocious, therefore I try to keep a list going on paper, adding to it as I discover things that are needed. If I try to rely on memory when in the supermarket I'll come back with (a) half the stuff missing and (b) lots of extra random stuff that caught my eye on the way around the aisles...
I don't play cards for money either. Which explains why I still have a roof over my head
a totally different kettle of.....eeer.....eeeer, what is it? Oh yeah, fish.
singlecoil said:
I've been interested in this subject for years, more so recently as I have been learning to play Bridge.
To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
When you look at your guitar, do you remember that half of the three pickups is missing? To play really well one needs to know which cards have already been played, that's how it seems, anyway. Of course, what you really need to know is which cars have not been played. In other words, you need to be able to remember what has been played, subtract them from a list in your head of all the cards, then to be able to have available, in your 'working memory' a list of what cards have not yet been seen.
A similar situation arises when preparing a shopping list. One looks in the kitchen to see what's there, but really you need to be able to see what isn't there.
Is this something that can be enhanced with practise, or is it limited by basic talent and presumably degraded with age?
Try training your memory up by grouping, and the counting the groups.
So, mentally group the cards. Very loose groups to start with. Maybe Black/Red or the 4 suites. Just track whats in each group.
Then, once you can confidently keep track of those, split the groups further Maybe into 4 Suites->Hi/Lo cards.
I find this works for me.
So, mentally group the cards. Very loose groups to start with. Maybe Black/Red or the 4 suites. Just track whats in each group.
Then, once you can confidently keep track of those, split the groups further Maybe into 4 Suites->Hi/Lo cards.
I find this works for me.
singlecoil said:
mr_tony said:
1. Thereis a finite set of 52 cards. Subtracting the cards from the set that have been played to leave a mental list of cards which have not is a relatively simple task. I'm sure with practice it could be achieved relatively easily if one took it seriously and wasn't a complete wazzock.
Your name is Ron Klinger AICMFP
I'm just saying that a set of 52 fixed items that you subtract known members from (bridge), is a lot easier to manage than a set of potentially unlimited items (contents of kitchen) that you need to subtract present items from (know) and add other items to (things you don't have and haven't run out of but need this week).
The thing is most of us manage to do the second task pretty well, even though the first tast is mathematically more simple. I'm no memory master, but the guys like derren brown who do that kind of remembering trick, use simple easy to learn techniques that anyone can master. So if you wanted to do it, go down that route. It may not make you perfect, but I'd bet you'd significantly improve over your current position....
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