Hoops before getting paid
Discussion
I have just had a snotty email from a public sector client reminding me of their 'No PO, no Pay' poicy. Basically, if an invoice is submitted without a purchase order it won't be paid, but retruned to us to chase the purchase order through the commissioning dept and then we will have to resubmit the invoie and outr 28 day payment period restarts.
Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
Brown and Boris said:
I have just had a snotty email from a public sector client reminding me of their 'No PO, no Pay' poicy. Basically, if an invoice is submitted without a purchase order it won't be paid, but retruned to us to chase the purchase order through the commissioning dept and then we will have to resubmit the invoie and outr 28 day payment period restarts.
Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
I can't see where their finance department is out of line. You want paid, submit an invoice in line with their request that it contains a PO number.Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
If you haven't got a PO number, get one before invoicing.
It sounds like you're the one running a risk here doing work without a PO raised. Doesn't sound like it's a problem so far, but don't have a go at the finance people becuase you and your client haven't bothered your arses to sort the paperowrk out.
How does the person in Finance know where to book your invoice against. And why should they waste their time chasing people within their company to raise the POs for them?
I am a limited company... I follow each of my clients and agents instructions to the letter to ensure that I get paid in a timely fashion as it's my money and my responsibilty.
You need to the do the same.
All IMHO of course
Piersman2 said:
Brown and Boris said:
I have just had a snotty email from a public sector client reminding me of their 'No PO, no Pay' poicy. Basically, if an invoice is submitted without a purchase order it won't be paid, but retruned to us to chase the purchase order through the commissioning dept and then we will have to resubmit the invoie and outr 28 day payment period restarts.
Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
I can't see where their finance department is out of line. You want paid, submit an invoice in line with their request that it contains a PO number.Might seem simple enough and a number of clients operate this policy for the convenience of their finance dept. If only life were that simple. We get work sent to us without purchase orders on a daily bsis and their organisation would soon grind to a halt if we stopped work or declined to return completed work until we had a purchase order. We send the invoice to the commissioning Dept. and they add the purchase order number on the way back through (usually but not always).
The tone of their email racked me off as we don't put PO numbers on for their operational convenience not ours and I wanted to send them a terse reply reminding them that our terms and conditions say they pay within 28 days or cop for the extra BoE +2% interest (which given the drop in BoE rate today won't frigthten anybody) and that after 90 days we send it to debt collectors.
So, can they legally not pay and insist we have a PO before we invoice or if we have an email or letter from someone in their organisation asking us to do the work, is that enough to start the 28/90 day payment clock ticking?
Probably of no practical use because we will probably ask the comissioning dept to make sure they have a PO, but I just wanted to see if I had the moral/legal high ground for the future.
If you haven't got a PO number, get one before invoicing.
It sounds like you're the one running a risk here doing work without a PO raised. Doesn't sound like it's a problem so far, but don't have a go at the finance people becuase you and your client haven't bothered your arses to sort the paperowrk out.
How does the person in Finance know where to book your invoice against. And why should they waste their time chasing people within their company to raise the POs for them?
I am a limited company... I follow each of my clients and agents instructions to the letter to ensure that I get paid in a timely fashion as it's my money and my responsibilty.
You need to the do the same.
All IMHO of course
having worked for biggish companies I've always been clear with any supplier. Do not invoice us until I've given you the PO.
Sometimes you have to ask contractors to do stuff before the purchase req is signed, and technically that puts me on sticky ground, but say I forget to do the requisition I'd expect the supplier to contact me before invoicing. Otherwise our finance dept will kick my arse.
For the OP. Go back to original contact and request PO number before you invoice. Why can't they do this ?
Sometimes you have to ask contractors to do stuff before the purchase req is signed, and technically that puts me on sticky ground, but say I forget to do the requisition I'd expect the supplier to contact me before invoicing. Otherwise our finance dept will kick my arse.
For the OP. Go back to original contact and request PO number before you invoice. Why can't they do this ?
Make it clear to them that if they insist on a PO before paying then you need the PO before you start work. If their organisation really will grind to a halt then I'm sure that the PO will be issued pretty quickly when the problems start piling up.
Just make it clear that you are only doing this so that you can comply with their rules.
Just make it clear that you are only doing this so that you can comply with their rules.
johnfm said:
They can if the terms and conditions under which you are contracted outline the procedure.
Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
Given there is no PO it kind of implies there is no official contract - I'd imagine that without a signed PO the vendor is supplying at their own risk. Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
My company does this frequently for big clients who bully and abuse their position, pay us late (over 1 year late for 6 figure sums) and generally s
t all over contractors, but because they are big, spend a lot of money we either have to take it on the chin knowing we will eventually get paid - or stop doing business with them. The evils of doing business with large corporates.If the company isn't that large, and you are as vital as they think then you should start imposing the "no PO, no work" rule - if they truly value you as a supplier then they will comply.
GreigM said:
johnfm said:
They can if the terms and conditions under which you are contracted outline the procedure.
Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
Given there is no PO it kind of implies there is no official contract - I'd imagine that without a signed PO the vendor is supplying at their own risk. Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
My company does this frequently for big clients who bully and abuse their position, pay us late (over 1 year late for 6 figure sums) and generally s
t all over contractors, but because they are big, spend a lot of money we either have to take it on the chin knowing we will eventually get paid - or stop doing business with them. The evils of doing business with large corporates.If the company isn't that large, and you are as vital as they think then you should start imposing the "no PO, no work" rule - if they truly value you as a supplier then they will comply.
If govt. dept rings boris and says "can you do this for me by next month?" Boris says "yes", Govt man says "how much?", Boris says "£1000"., govt man says "OK" the contract is formed.
Written 'contract' is neither here nor there - just better for court evidence.
johnfm said:
GreigM said:
johnfm said:
They can if the terms and conditions under which you are contracted outline the procedure.
Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
Given there is no PO it kind of implies there is no official contract - I'd imagine that without a signed PO the vendor is supplying at their own risk. Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
My company does this frequently for big clients who bully and abuse their position, pay us late (over 1 year late for 6 figure sums) and generally s
t all over contractors, but because they are big, spend a lot of money we either have to take it on the chin knowing we will eventually get paid - or stop doing business with them. The evils of doing business with large corporates.If the company isn't that large, and you are as vital as they think then you should start imposing the "no PO, no work" rule - if they truly value you as a supplier then they will comply.
If govt. dept rings boris and says "can you do this for me by next month?" Boris says "yes", Govt man says "how much?", Boris says "£1000"., govt man says "OK" the contract is formed.
johnfm said:
GreigM said:
johnfm said:
They can if the terms and conditions under which you are contracted outline the procedure.
Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
Given there is no PO it kind of implies there is no official contract - I'd imagine that without a signed PO the vendor is supplying at their own risk. Whose T&Cs is teh contract under? Yours or theirs?
My company does this frequently for big clients who bully and abuse their position, pay us late (over 1 year late for 6 figure sums) and generally s
t all over contractors, but because they are big, spend a lot of money we either have to take it on the chin knowing we will eventually get paid - or stop doing business with them. The evils of doing business with large corporates.If the company isn't that large, and you are as vital as they think then you should start imposing the "no PO, no work" rule - if they truly value you as a supplier then they will comply.
If govt. dept rings boris and says "can you do this for me by next month?" Boris says "yes", Govt man says "how much?", Boris says "£1000"., govt man says "OK" the contract is formed.
f13ldy said:
Never trust public sector.
From now on I would insist on getting a PO before commencing work, or the completion of work.
Despite being government funded they don't want to pay anything.
I used to work for a Local Authority and it was usual to keep bumping invoices for up to three months , the accounts department were useless and unless spoon fed would plod invoices through the system so slowly we often had services refused and credit cut off.From now on I would insist on getting a PO before commencing work, or the completion of work.
Despite being government funded they don't want to pay anything.
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