Labour lies and the true extent of UK debt...

[toppstuff]

Sorry if this is a repost, but this is a situation which should be shouted from the roof tops.

We simply cannot let these idiots in charge lie to us any longer.

I invite the Labour apologists to explain themselves...

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3078296/the...

And to anyone who thinks the doom mongers are being too pessimistic, hopefully this explains things..

[wideload]

Oh dear...

[turbobloke]

400% GDP overall

300% GDP short-term

[johnnywb]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

£1 to €1?

Soon it'll be £10 to €1

[Racefan_uk]

The strange thing is, I'm not actually that surprised.

What does surprise me is people who still keep saying that it's only temporary and that house prices will be rising again before spring, they're the ones with their heads buried deeply in the sand. And probably the same ones buying everything on their credit cards thinking it will all be right when they can unlock the capital in their Million pound house that's only worth a couple of hundred grand at best...

[Durruti]

Exactly why I think we're on our way to a sovereign debt default and the IMF Poorhouse.

Ask yourself this question. If you had cash to invest and had the option of buying UK Bonds or making an investment anywhere else in the world, what would you do?.

Which is why the Chinese and Arabs will eventually come to the conclusion that lending to this government and expecting the result to change is pointless. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a different outcome?

fked. Ever, ever so fked.

For light relief I offer the Boris Johnson Rap. Go on, you know you want to.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4_cUyF929wg

[siscar]

johnnywb said:

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

£1 to €1?

Soon it'll be £10 to €1

Actually no it won't, the pound/euro rate has over-reacted, a bit like the oil price did not so long ago, it will correct but meanwhile Euro-land faces big problems - a strong currency is not what you want when the world is in recessions. Greece, Italy & Spain are suffering most but the likes of Germany are being hit hard as well.

[johnnywb]

siscar said:

johnnywb said:

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

£1 to €1?

Soon it'll be £10 to €1

Actually no it won't, the pound/euro rate has over-reacted, a bit like the oil price did not so long ago, it will correct but meanwhile Euro-land faces big problems - a strong currency is not what you want when the world is in recessions. Greece, Italy & Spain are suffering most but the likes of Germany are being hit hard as well.

OK, it was a sarcastic comment. However i wouldn't be at all surprised to see the £ trading below the € for a considerable time. At the end of the day whilst the single monetary policy is a poor instrument for delicate manipulation, its strength will become plain to see over the next 12 months. Whilst the Eurozone economies will suffer (and are suffering), they have a huge diversification in industries, meaning that a few areas will help to maintain the strength of the Euro. We don't have that, we have become a very focussed economy and that is going to hurt us now as we try and get out of this mess.

[Jasandjules]

Haven't looked at the link, but if it doesn't mention the PFI deals, then there is more debt to be added.

[Fittster]

OK, we go broke and have to go to the IMF for a bail out. What conditions are they likely to place on the UK? Raises taxes, cut spending on the welfare state, etc??

[toppstuff]

Jasandjules said:

Haven't looked at the link, but if it doesn't mention the PFI deals, then there is more debt to be added.

Basically the link explains that if you include PFI our debt is not 40bln, but 400bln...

We are, basically, more in debt than any one else and as a result completely buggered. It was calculated by an economist/ analyst at Citibank.

[elster]

Shock horror statistics tell whatever the story wants.

AH I wont lose sleep over a spectator story, much like I wont worry about what all the other tabloids say.

I'll keep earning, if I ending up losing my job, I will do something else. Whole world to go at.

Your title is misleading. Do you think there is a politician out there that doesn't?!

Edited by elster on Monday 5th January 18:16

[chris watton]

I can’t help thinking that Gordon Brown is acting like a little child after he’s broken his best toy – and prays to make what he did not happen. Only Gordon Brown actually believes he can part the sea and perform miracles; his false sincerity and false ‘party line’ words are now becoming embarrassing, they must sound daft to even him by now! – I suspect the truth is there’s nothing left in the kitty to even put a Band Aid on the problem – trying to take no responsibility for this by blaming the US proves he’s already lost the plot big time.

[turbobloke]

elster said:

Shock horror statistics tell whatever the story wants.

Yes if the story is a viewpoint, but let's not confuse commentary with data - the article looks like it was well researched and is accurate but if a professional economist wishes to challenge it then I would imagine there's a ready audience on here.

elster said:

AH I wont lose sleep over a spectator story, much like I wont worry about what all the other tabloids say. I'll keep earning, if I ending up losing my job, I will do something else. Whole world to go at.

As far as individual response goes, I agree that in spite of the complete economic f*ckup BLiar and Brown have achieved, with a global dimension cherry on top, we might as well remain calm and as cheerful as possible while doing everything we can to offset the likely personal impact of what the article describes. Which is: the country is currently well fooked.

[Riley15/6]

johnnywb said:

However i wouldn't be at all surprised to see the £ trading below the € for a considerable time. At the end of the day whilst the single monetary policy is a poor instrument for delicate manipulation, its strength will become plain to see over the next 12 months. Whilst the Eurozone economies will suffer (and are suffering), they have a huge diversification in industries, meaning that a few areas will help to maintain the strength of the Euro.

I'm not sure about that. At present the euro is trading strongly due to high interest rates (well higher than anywhere else with hard currencies), and a flight away from the £. However, the weakness of the Euro has not yet been factored into this. The economic issues in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece are severe and these countries are far more at risk of sovereign debt default that the UK, bear in mind that we can turn the printing presses up to max, they can't. Furthermore the eastern european economies have a massive euro exposure to european banks. These economies are even more likely to default both on sovereign and personal debt and have tied their currencies to the euro so they can't devalue.

[Jasandjules]

toppstuff said:

Jasandjules said:

Haven't looked at the link, but if it doesn't mention the PFI deals, then there is more debt to be added.

Basically the link explains that if you include PFI our debt is not 40bln, but 400bln...

We are, basically, more in debt than any one else and as a result completely buggered. It was calculated by an economist/ analyst at Citibank.

Ah right, well if it includes PFI that is fair enough. Bottom line, people should have known about the substantial debt that UK Plc was getting into as a result of Nu laba p***ng billions of pounds up the wall for the next twenty to thirty years......

[chris watton]

Well I don't know why the hell Italy is in a bad position, it takes enough revenue - 40% tax, 24% NI and 20% VAT - 84% of total earnings! What do they do with it all!

[elster]

turbobloke said:

elster said:

Shock horror statistics tell whatever the story wants.

Yes if the story is a viewpoint, but let's not confuse commentary with data - the article looks like it was well researched and is accurate but if a professional economist wishes to challenge it then I would imagine there's a ready audience on here.

What other use is data other than to show a viewpoint?

elster said:

AH I wont lose sleep over a spectator story, much like I wont worry about what all the other tabloids say. I'll keep earning, if I ending up losing my job, I will do something else. Whole world to go at.

As far as individual response goes, I agree that in spite of the complete economic f*ckup BLiar and Brown have achieved, with a global dimension cherry on top, we might as well remain calm and as cheerful as possible while doing everything we can to offset the likely personal impact of what the article describes. Which is: the country is currently well fooked.

Absolutely, no point whining.

[polus]

elster said:

Shock horror statistics tell whatever the story wants.

So what is the truth? It doesn’t matter? Some magical industrial rejuvenation is going to reduce it? We have huge amounts of foreign assets?

I know sod all about economics but it would seem to me that we are way over our head in debt with no recourse, maybe someone could elaborate on the obvious

[turbobloke]

elster said:

turbobloke said:

elster said:

Shock horror statistics tell whatever the story wants.

Yes if the story is a viewpoint, but let's not confuse commentary with data - the article looks like it was well researched and is accurate but if a professional economist wishes to challenge it then I would imagine there's a ready audience on here.

What other use is data other than to show a viewpoint?

If verifiable, it's more than that - because it's independent of the author and their viewpoint.

To refute that viewpoint, credible alternative data is needed that leads to a different conclusion, with an explanation of how the original data was inaccurate and how the revised data is more accurate.

elster said:

Absolutely, no point whining.

Erm, yes, I think but a good whine with a good wine can be therapeutic.

Edited by turbobloke on Monday 5th January 19:01