Frozen outdoor pipes - what to do?

[zadumbreion]

I've got outdoor water pipes in the garden, on the patio etc - and they appear to be frozen solid (ie turn the handle, nothing comes out).

I have opened them all slightly in a belated attempt to provide some pressure relief, but I guess that isn't going to help much at this stage.

What should I be doing? There's no point trying to thaw them now until the weather gets warmer. Even the tap that was lagged has frozen.

Is it possible that although they've frozen, they won't have burst? Two are plastic pipes and two are copper.

Any advice would be welcome!

(What makes things even more of a potential nightmare is that there appears to be no stop-cock or valve or anything for the external pipes - the only control I have is the main valve where the mains water enters the house. And to make things worse, a lot of the pipes run inside garden walls, under the patio etc so if one HAS burst, it's going to be nasty trying to get to it....)

[TWSTEEL]

Where do they enter the house and connect to the mains supply?

Edited by TWSTEEL on Tuesday 6th January 19:34

[zadumbreion]

TWSTEEL said:

zadumbreion said:

I've got outdoor water pipes in the garden, on the patio etc - and they appear to be frozen solid (ie turn the handle, nothing comes out).

I have opened them all slightly in a belated attempt to provide some pressure relief, but I guess that isn't going to help much at this stage.

What should I be doing? There's no point trying to thaw them now until the weather gets warmer. Even the tap that was lagged has frozen.

Is it possible that although they've frozen, they won't have burst? Two are plastic pipes and two are copper.

Any advice would be welcome!

(What makes things even more of a potential nightmare is that there appears to be no stop-cock or valve or anything for the external pipes - the only control I have is the main valve where the mains water enters the house. And to make things worse, a lot of the pipes run inside garden walls, under the patio etc so if one HAS burst, it's going to be nasty trying to get to it....)

Where do they enter the house and connect to the mains supply?

I have no idea. Two disappear into a wall that runs round the outside of the house, so can't be traced, one disappears under the patio with no obvious pipe of any sort at the end where the patio meets the house; and the last one disappears into the ground at the bottom of the garden.....


ETA - the wall that runs round the outside of the house isn't just a wall; it supports the embankment (we live on a hill) so it's not a case of looking round the other side of the wall - the other side of the wall is the hill...

Edited by zadumbreion on Tuesday 6th January 19:36

[stifler]

Petrol, rag, match, stand well back.

HTH

[zadumbreion]

stifler said:

HTH

UTDH

[Simpo Two]

1) Trace the pipes back to somewhere inside the house

2) Turn the water off - usually a big tap thing under the sink.

3) Buy and fit a stopcock (many types availble)

4) Wait for the pipes to thaw

Pipes don't always burst when they freeze - but keep the stopcock closed until the thaw just in case.


(I was thinking that fitting the stopcock while the pipe is frozen would avoid having to turn the water off, but then of course it wouldn't be far enough back up the pipe, doh!)

[Wacky Racer]

Leave them to thaw out naturally....and hope for the best.

Pipes only burst when water thaws and expands....whatever you do don't try to speed up the process, you are asking for trouble.......

[TWSTEEL]

If you really can't trace their source from the house yet I'd be inclined to do nothing till the thaw. You can then shut off the main stopcock and if you still can't trace the connection point, put a shut off valve on each one where they enter the property so at least you'll not have the same problem again. If necessary you could box each one in and use foamfill to insulate them at that point but my guess is that when the pressure's off you'll be able to find the connections and maybe put a shutoff valve inside the property.

[zadumbreion]

Simpo Two said:

1) Trace the pipes back to somewhere inside the house

OK.... err... how?

I've walked round the outside of the house looking for pipes and can't see anything except waste pipes, so they must be underground....

[davido140]

Wacky Racer said:

Leave them to thaw out naturally....and hope for the best.

Pipes only burst when water thaws and expands....whatever you do don't try to speed up the process, you are asking for trouble.......

you're joking right?

[Simpo Two]

zadumbreion said:

Simpo Two said:

1) Trace the pipes back to somewhere inside the house

OK.... err... how?

I've walked round the outside of the house looking for pipes and can't see anything except waste pipes, so they must be underground....

OK, start under the kitchen sink and see what you can see. Any pipes that you can't account for?

[Parrot of Doom]

Wacky Racer said:

Leave them to thaw out naturally....and hope for the best.

Pipes only burst when water thaws and expands....whatever you do don't try to speed up the process, you are asking for trouble.......

I thought ice expanded, not water?

[HundredthIdiot]

Parrot of Doom said:

I thought ice expanded, not water?

[Autonotiv]

Wacky Racer said:

Leave them to thaw out naturally....and hope for the best.

Pipes only burst when water thaws and expands....whatever you do don't try to speed up the process, you are asking for trouble.......

Only when you don't have any water on site, thus meaning you can't fill the kettle like this morning

[zadumbreion]

I read the bursting is caused not by the radial expansion of the ice, but by the ice expansion increasing pressure on water trapped between the ice and the tap - water "upstream" of the ice can just be pushed back towards the mains.....?

Of course - if that IS the case, and if it's the exposed pipes (above ground) that are most likely to be damaged, then it may be possible to fit a stopcock...

It would be an complete and utter nightmare to get to any piping behind the embankment wall....

Edited by zadumbreion on Tuesday 6th January 20:00

[TheCaseAce]

HundredthIdiot said:

Parrot of Doom said:

I thought ice expanded, not water?

At room temperature, liquid water becomes denser with lowering temperature, just like other substances. But at 4°C (3.98 to be precise), just above freezing, water reaches its maximum density, and as water cools further toward its freezing point, the liquid water, under standard conditions, expands to become less dense.



Water might be denser, but that doesn't mean it breaks pipes. An expanding solid does that.

[Derek Withers]

I fixed three burst pipes at work today. When I say burst, one was a copper compression joint the other two were plastic push fit connectors that had broken. They are all still frozen and I can't check if the repairs have worked yet. Until everything thaws I wont be able to tell if there are anymore leaks either. There is little you can do until the pipes thaw unfortunatley unless you can see obvious breaks like I did.

[zadumbreion]

Thanks for the advice so far guys.

The whole thing is weird, anyway. I can imagine the radial expansion of ice bursting a pipe - but if it is really the compression of water that does it - wouldn't the expanding ice find it easier to slide back away from the tap end? In other words - once the ice has expanded and put the water under pressure, surely it would take less force to push the ice blockage along the pipe than compress the water so much it bursts a metal pipe?

Hmmmmm

Edited by zadumbreion on Tuesday 6th January 20:08

[Simpo Two]

zadumbreion said:

The whole thing is weird, anyway. I can imagine the radial expansion of ice bursting a pipe - but if it is really the compression of water that does it - wouldn't the expanding ice find it easier to slide back away from the tap end?

Probably yes depending on friction, but the end would need to be open to air since water is pretty much uncompressible.

[Gargamel]

normal water pressure doesn't burst pipes - if it did then taps wouldn't work

So blockage caused by ice isn't going to do it. Pipes burst because of the radial expansion of the ice, you just don't find out about it until the thaw sits in...

Unlikely that any underground or behind embankment buried pipes will have frozen solid - ground temp usually prevent that - it will be the exposed sections (hopefully)