Calling all electricians - PLEASE HELP!
Discussion
Anyone whose not feeling in an exceptionally generous mood and doesn't have time to waste reading my rant below - stop reading now!! I'm bloody pissed off and wondering if anyone might have experience with the below.
Also I'm not sure this is the correct forum - but I thought this might get more views. Mods move if you like.
I'm exasperated and at the end of my tether with a little (read: big) problem I've spent countless days trying to get my head around. It's actually rather serious from a (credit crunched hit) business point of view and I'm desperate to get this sorted quickly so I'd appreciated any help/ideas whatsoever.
I'm trying to install an inverter into a mobile office van so I can use mains power (plug sockets, lights, air conditioning) on-board.
Following the manual, I wired the AC-in as directed. This is connected to a three way caravan-esque connector on the other end which then plugs into the mains socket. There is a 260AH battery connected to the inverter. Again following the manual this is wired to the two connections inside the inverter.
At first, everything onboard was hooked up to the inverter but now I have systematically dismantled everything trying to isolate the problem...
The problem is that when I try to turn the inverter on, the red LED flicks straight to 'alarm'. Doesn't come on, doesn't power up. If I flick the switch to 'charger only' - the same problem. Red light, no power on. I then disconnected the battery to remove it completely from the equation. Again, I power on the inverter - alarm - red light. Inverter makes a noise like its tripping out (a click or whatever). Several times it has tripped the house power too. The manual states this could occur if the the battery voltage is too low - but there is no battery connected. The insanely frustrating thing is that twice today I have flicked the switch to on and the alarm led comes on.. after ten seconds the yellow (charger only) light flicks on and powers up. The little test light I had wired into the AC out from the inverter started working. I kept turning it on and off to check it wasn't a fluke. This worked 5 times in a row with NO battery connected (just running from mains power). Ten minutes later, I do exactly the same thing and nothing. Just the red 'alarm' light on again and the tripping noise. Nothing had changed. What other possible reason for this other than a faulty unit? The way to reset the unit is to turn it off for four seconds and the bloody manual is useless.
What I really need is a marine electrical specialist to check it all out but I don't have the cash to shell out for that right now. Plus, I've had it working the past until the first fault and to the best of my knowledge I'm doing everything the same.
I am exasperated because this is a 1.5k piece of kit that's been back to the manufacturer once already because of a fault several months ago and it took 6 weeks for them to sort it. I'm losing money everyday this thing isn't working. I'm assured it was sent back to us in working order (it was 'checked by an engineer') but my last two days to get it working have been to no avail. I'm on a week time-scale now, a super tight schedule and I really, REALLY don't want to send it back again. I have rung the manufacturer, they're whole technical team is at the London boat show until next week and no one can help.
When I had a working system before with the same unit, unplugging shore power would cause the inverter to switch straight over and draw current from the battery. I never tested it without a battery hooked up because I never had any problems to diagnose. I've never had to change any dip switches on the unit before (they control AC frequency etc) and although I'm no marine electrical expert .. I really can't see what I'm doing wrong.
I really want to know if:
1) The inverter should work as expected with JUST the mains connected (AC-in), no battery in the circuit. Surely this is logical!?
2) Does anyone have any experience with these multi/combi charger inverters? Any installation advice? Something stupid I might be missing.
3) Would the inverter turn on, with a battery in the circuit AND main power connected, if the battery voltage was too low (say 11.0V). Logically, the inverter should think 'battery voltage is low', lets switch over to mains power. With my problem, the red alarm light comes on whether the battery is in the circuit or not.
Ideally, I'd love a refund, but the unit is now 6 months old (one years warranty btw) and I'm sure you all know how hard it is to get this when a company wants to repair stuff so much more. The company doesn't understand how tight of a timescale/money scale I am on and will take weeks to sort it all out.
If anyone can point me to a relevant forum please do but PH has come to the rescue before .. so it's my first bet :/
Again apologies for the stupidly long post but I 'didn't have time to make it short'. If anyone can help me get this thing working I will be so grateful you won't imagine and they'll be a bloody big pint in it for you, wherever you are! (I'll come and deliver!)
Any people that reply 'too long, didn't read'. Yes you are correct and I wouldn't have read it either!
Thanks.
From a very pissed off DIYer.
Also I'm not sure this is the correct forum - but I thought this might get more views. Mods move if you like.
I'm exasperated and at the end of my tether with a little (read: big) problem I've spent countless days trying to get my head around. It's actually rather serious from a (credit crunched hit) business point of view and I'm desperate to get this sorted quickly so I'd appreciated any help/ideas whatsoever.
I'm trying to install an inverter into a mobile office van so I can use mains power (plug sockets, lights, air conditioning) on-board.
Following the manual, I wired the AC-in as directed. This is connected to a three way caravan-esque connector on the other end which then plugs into the mains socket. There is a 260AH battery connected to the inverter. Again following the manual this is wired to the two connections inside the inverter.
At first, everything onboard was hooked up to the inverter but now I have systematically dismantled everything trying to isolate the problem...
The problem is that when I try to turn the inverter on, the red LED flicks straight to 'alarm'. Doesn't come on, doesn't power up. If I flick the switch to 'charger only' - the same problem. Red light, no power on. I then disconnected the battery to remove it completely from the equation. Again, I power on the inverter - alarm - red light. Inverter makes a noise like its tripping out (a click or whatever). Several times it has tripped the house power too. The manual states this could occur if the the battery voltage is too low - but there is no battery connected. The insanely frustrating thing is that twice today I have flicked the switch to on and the alarm led comes on.. after ten seconds the yellow (charger only) light flicks on and powers up. The little test light I had wired into the AC out from the inverter started working. I kept turning it on and off to check it wasn't a fluke. This worked 5 times in a row with NO battery connected (just running from mains power). Ten minutes later, I do exactly the same thing and nothing. Just the red 'alarm' light on again and the tripping noise. Nothing had changed. What other possible reason for this other than a faulty unit? The way to reset the unit is to turn it off for four seconds and the bloody manual is useless.
What I really need is a marine electrical specialist to check it all out but I don't have the cash to shell out for that right now. Plus, I've had it working the past until the first fault and to the best of my knowledge I'm doing everything the same.
I am exasperated because this is a 1.5k piece of kit that's been back to the manufacturer once already because of a fault several months ago and it took 6 weeks for them to sort it. I'm losing money everyday this thing isn't working. I'm assured it was sent back to us in working order (it was 'checked by an engineer') but my last two days to get it working have been to no avail. I'm on a week time-scale now, a super tight schedule and I really, REALLY don't want to send it back again. I have rung the manufacturer, they're whole technical team is at the London boat show until next week and no one can help.
When I had a working system before with the same unit, unplugging shore power would cause the inverter to switch straight over and draw current from the battery. I never tested it without a battery hooked up because I never had any problems to diagnose. I've never had to change any dip switches on the unit before (they control AC frequency etc) and although I'm no marine electrical expert .. I really can't see what I'm doing wrong.
I really want to know if:
1) The inverter should work as expected with JUST the mains connected (AC-in), no battery in the circuit. Surely this is logical!?
2) Does anyone have any experience with these multi/combi charger inverters? Any installation advice? Something stupid I might be missing.
3) Would the inverter turn on, with a battery in the circuit AND main power connected, if the battery voltage was too low (say 11.0V). Logically, the inverter should think 'battery voltage is low', lets switch over to mains power. With my problem, the red alarm light comes on whether the battery is in the circuit or not.
Ideally, I'd love a refund, but the unit is now 6 months old (one years warranty btw) and I'm sure you all know how hard it is to get this when a company wants to repair stuff so much more. The company doesn't understand how tight of a timescale/money scale I am on and will take weeks to sort it all out.
If anyone can point me to a relevant forum please do but PH has come to the rescue before .. so it's my first bet :/
Again apologies for the stupidly long post but I 'didn't have time to make it short'. If anyone can help me get this thing working I will be so grateful you won't imagine and they'll be a bloody big pint in it for you, wherever you are! (I'll come and deliver!)
Any people that reply 'too long, didn't read'. Yes you are correct and I wouldn't have read it either!
Thanks.
From a very pissed off DIYer.
I don't post here often and I am not a qualified spark but...
Looking at the manual for the unit you linked to (if this is the one you have?) and assuming that you are running a 12V battery you may have a battery that is not of sufficient capacity (400Ah min for 12V) plus they specify a particular type of battery construction is yours the right type? however this doesn't explain the fault when the battery isn't present. The only other thing I could think of that may cause this intermittently would be that the mains supply cables are right on the border of being too small meaning that with variances in the mains current the machine may intermittently sense that the supply cables are not of sufficient cross section for the incoming feed. This is purely a guess but as the machine is an intelligent piece of kit, it could be any small insignificant thing causing these issues.
Having experience in inspection and testing of electrical products at a manufacturer I would be surprised to find that the machine is faulty. more likely is that the installation isn't quite up to spec and the unit isn't playing ball.
I would first concentrate on getting the machine to work reliably when a mains supply is connected, over spec the cable to rule out tripping for this reason, make sure there are no nasty coils in your cable runs or poorly made joints. If all goes well I would then look at the battery, if I am right and the spec isn't correct change it and hopefully it will all be ok.
Failing that I would head to nautical forums, there may be some good boat types out there who have the same system.
Looking at the manual for the unit you linked to (if this is the one you have?) and assuming that you are running a 12V battery you may have a battery that is not of sufficient capacity (400Ah min for 12V) plus they specify a particular type of battery construction is yours the right type? however this doesn't explain the fault when the battery isn't present. The only other thing I could think of that may cause this intermittently would be that the mains supply cables are right on the border of being too small meaning that with variances in the mains current the machine may intermittently sense that the supply cables are not of sufficient cross section for the incoming feed. This is purely a guess but as the machine is an intelligent piece of kit, it could be any small insignificant thing causing these issues.
Having experience in inspection and testing of electrical products at a manufacturer I would be surprised to find that the machine is faulty. more likely is that the installation isn't quite up to spec and the unit isn't playing ball.
I would first concentrate on getting the machine to work reliably when a mains supply is connected, over spec the cable to rule out tripping for this reason, make sure there are no nasty coils in your cable runs or poorly made joints. If all goes well I would then look at the battery, if I am right and the spec isn't correct change it and hopefully it will all be ok.
Failing that I would head to nautical forums, there may be some good boat types out there who have the same system.
That's not really a DIY unit is it?
Most of those sorts of equipment are pretty robust if you use them as intended. If you make a simple mistake, like perhaps getting the battery the wrong way round, they are as good as (very expensive) gash.
Do you have any significant test equipment for commissioning, like perhaps a scope or dummy loads, a megger? Even if the equipment is at fault could you actually prove it?
I doubt that the company particularly want to keep fixing your equipment.
From your long decription it's pretty difficult to figure out what you might be doing (or even doing wrong) short of guessing. As an electronics engineer (with marine radar experience on military vessels of the world), that makes me into a guesser too.
I'm really sorry.
Most of those sorts of equipment are pretty robust if you use them as intended. If you make a simple mistake, like perhaps getting the battery the wrong way round, they are as good as (very expensive) gash.
Do you have any significant test equipment for commissioning, like perhaps a scope or dummy loads, a megger? Even if the equipment is at fault could you actually prove it?
I doubt that the company particularly want to keep fixing your equipment.
From your long decription it's pretty difficult to figure out what you might be doing (or even doing wrong) short of guessing. As an electronics engineer (with marine radar experience on military vessels of the world), that makes me into a guesser too.
I'm really sorry.
Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 13th January 03:52
freecar said:
I don't post here often and I am not a qualified spark but...
Looking at the manual for the unit you linked to (if this is the one you have?) and assuming that you are running a 12V battery you may have a battery that is not of sufficient capacity (400Ah min for 12V) plus they specify a particular type of battery construction is yours the right type? however this doesn't explain the fault when the battery isn't present. The only other thing I could think of that may cause this intermittently would be that the mains supply cables are right on the border of being too small meaning that with variances in the mains current the machine may intermittently sense that the supply cables are not of sufficient cross section for the incoming feed. This is purely a guess but as the machine is an intelligent piece of kit, it could be any small insignificant thing causing these issues.
Having experience in inspection and testing of electrical products at a manufacturer I would be surprised to find that the machine is faulty. more likely is that the installation isn't quite up to spec and the unit isn't playing ball.
I would first concentrate on getting the machine to work reliably when a mains supply is connected, over spec the cable to rule out tripping for this reason, make sure there are no nasty coils in your cable runs or poorly made joints. If all goes well I would then look at the battery, if I am right and the spec isn't correct change it and hopefully it will all be ok.
Failing that I would head to nautical forums, there may be some good boat types out there who have the same system.
That is very handy - thankyou - I'll try some new, larger cables today (the ones I have at the moment are about twice the cross section of a car battery lead). Regarding the onboard battery, I don't think there's anything wrong there as I have used the same battery in a previous installation - it's a 'lifeline' one and they're generally pretty much the best you can get for £500. BUT I now see the recommended choice is 350 - 1000 Amps which I never noticed before. Amazing what another pair of eyes can see when I've read the thing 50 times over! Looking at the manual for the unit you linked to (if this is the one you have?) and assuming that you are running a 12V battery you may have a battery that is not of sufficient capacity (400Ah min for 12V) plus they specify a particular type of battery construction is yours the right type? however this doesn't explain the fault when the battery isn't present. The only other thing I could think of that may cause this intermittently would be that the mains supply cables are right on the border of being too small meaning that with variances in the mains current the machine may intermittently sense that the supply cables are not of sufficient cross section for the incoming feed. This is purely a guess but as the machine is an intelligent piece of kit, it could be any small insignificant thing causing these issues.
Having experience in inspection and testing of electrical products at a manufacturer I would be surprised to find that the machine is faulty. more likely is that the installation isn't quite up to spec and the unit isn't playing ball.
I would first concentrate on getting the machine to work reliably when a mains supply is connected, over spec the cable to rule out tripping for this reason, make sure there are no nasty coils in your cable runs or poorly made joints. If all goes well I would then look at the battery, if I am right and the spec isn't correct change it and hopefully it will all be ok.
Failing that I would head to nautical forums, there may be some good boat types out there who have the same system.
dilbert said:
That's not really a DIY unit is it?
Nope - but I stupidly insist on (trying) to do everything myself, at least at first. The testing we have is really just a testing light connected up to the AC-out side of the inverter. This would test if the inverter was..well inverting. Apart from that, I can't see how else to test if the damn thing keep tripping before turning on with just the mains connected.dilbert said:
I doubt that the company particularly want to keep fixing your equipment.
They fixed it once, but admitted there was a fault. They replaced a part and flashed some software I think. This makes me more worried it's another fault.elster said:
What is your location?
East Lincolnshire, about 80 miles from York, but I'd be wiling to travel!Just in case it helps this is the vehicle I'm installing it in.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/429282370_e3b80...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/429282370_e3b80...
Sorry - forgot the to mention the unit is this one:
Phoenix MultiPlus Compact 12 Volt
The input voltage is 230, which is mains power.
Phoenix MultiPlus Compact 12 Volt
The input voltage is 230, which is mains power.
craste said:
Just in case it helps this is the vehicle I'm installing it in.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/429282370_e3b80...
Jees, I wish.. government contracts are worth WAY more..http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/429282370_e3b80...
raharley said:
Sorry - forgot the to mention the unit is this one:
Phoenix MultiPlus Compact 12 Volt
The input voltage is 230, which is mains power.
OK, thats better.Phoenix MultiPlus Compact 12 Volt
The input voltage is 230, which is mains power.
You realise that this is a 300A circuit you are wiring? Any voltage drops will cause ripple that will trigger the alarm circuit. Are your input cables at least 70 mm2, and how long?
How are the configuration settings?
Poledriver said:
Is it grounded as instructed in the manual?
Have you checked your DIP switch settings?
When just the Ac-in is connected, the unit is grounded to the mains. Have you checked your DIP switch settings?
Dip switches shouldn't need to be changed, frequency is 50hz - there's nothing else that should be changed.
I've wasted enough time checking all the bleedin obvious things - it's faulty (again). There is no other explanation! Thanks anyway guys and wow that was a long OP - guess I was little pissed off that night.
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