HMO/Landlord help please
Discussion
Bit random to ask on here but seem to trust the knowledge and opinion of PH more. So I might be renting out my house, and because its 3 floors I understand it counts as a HMO.
So i'm trying to get it up to standard now, the first of which is fire safety. Now I can't tell whether my doors and 30 minute fire-resistant, is there any way to check? They feel pretty solid and are quite heavy, and they have a slot on the top of the door for an intumescent strip...so is it likely to be a fire door? My door frames also have a groove for these strips, can anyone tell me where to get the ones with brush on them? Is the brush for smoke sealing?
Secondly, can anyone give any advice on what I need in terms of emergency lighting? I've seen a few houses with these, I presume they'll turn on when the power of everything else is cut off? Does this need to be wired as a separate circuit?
Finally, a builder I got in suggested that for the shower it should be electric in case the boiler breaks, so that they'll still be able to get hot water. I personally hate electric showers, there never seems to be enough pressure and I was and still am thinking of going for a thermostatic mixer instead. Any opinions? Good or bad?
Thanks for the help
So i'm trying to get it up to standard now, the first of which is fire safety. Now I can't tell whether my doors and 30 minute fire-resistant, is there any way to check? They feel pretty solid and are quite heavy, and they have a slot on the top of the door for an intumescent strip...so is it likely to be a fire door? My door frames also have a groove for these strips, can anyone tell me where to get the ones with brush on them? Is the brush for smoke sealing?
Secondly, can anyone give any advice on what I need in terms of emergency lighting? I've seen a few houses with these, I presume they'll turn on when the power of everything else is cut off? Does this need to be wired as a separate circuit?
Finally, a builder I got in suggested that for the shower it should be electric in case the boiler breaks, so that they'll still be able to get hot water. I personally hate electric showers, there never seems to be enough pressure and I was and still am thinking of going for a thermostatic mixer instead. Any opinions? Good or bad?
Thanks for the help
I have a 3 storey property arranged in 3 flats in Blackpool.If 5 or more people live in the entire property then it is counted as a HMO,so as I only have 1 tenant per flat at the moment then I dont need a HMO certificate.
Your doors and frames sound like fire doors however they should have the strips and brushes to comply to regulations.
The most important aspect of safety is a fire/smoke alarm system and emergency lighting.Ive just had to update my whole system at a cost of over £3000 as I had an inspection from the council last year and my current system no longer complied to BS5839?.This meant I had to upgrade to a Grade A LD2 and Grade D LD3 system.(In a nutshell its a much more complex system with smoke and fire detection,linked with emergency lighting)
Your doors and frames sound like fire doors however they should have the strips and brushes to comply to regulations.
The most important aspect of safety is a fire/smoke alarm system and emergency lighting.Ive just had to update my whole system at a cost of over £3000 as I had an inspection from the council last year and my current system no longer complied to BS5839?.This meant I had to upgrade to a Grade A LD2 and Grade D LD3 system.(In a nutshell its a much more complex system with smoke and fire detection,linked with emergency lighting)
I have a couple of HMOs. An HMO only needs to be registered if you have 3 storeys and 5 or more people from different families sharing. If you have a single family occupying the whole property, you don't need it. If you have less than 5 people you don't have to register. If you split the property into flats, unless they are then shared flats, they don't count as HMOs. However they are then subject to different regulations which are similar to the HMO regulations.
For mine, registering them meant paying a £350 fee and ensuring the fire doors are up to spec (mine were but required about £500 worth of work for closers). You then need to provide fire extinguishers on every floor and a blanket in the kitchen. The biggest cost is a fire alarm which for me will be £6k! This is per house!
This is for Suffolk Coastal District Council - it is different for each council but the top paragraph should be the same.
Hope that helps
Mark
For mine, registering them meant paying a £350 fee and ensuring the fire doors are up to spec (mine were but required about £500 worth of work for closers). You then need to provide fire extinguishers on every floor and a blanket in the kitchen. The biggest cost is a fire alarm which for me will be £6k! This is per house!
This is for Suffolk Coastal District Council - it is different for each council but the top paragraph should be the same.
Hope that helps
Mark
Thanks for the replies. Its a 4 bed so I guess that means I'm exempt! But i thought that the property only had to meet one of the regulations to count as a HMO - is that definitely wrong?
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
You should look here to see whether you need an HMO licence
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/...
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/...
Seany88 said:
Thanks for the replies. Its a 4 bed so I guess that means I'm exempt! But i thought that the property only had to meet one of the regulations to count as a HMO - is that definitely wrong?
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
You should be exempt but I would call the council to check (anonymously, don't give any details!!). And yes I would get fire extinguishers too, they are pretty cheap. The rest you are spot on I think.I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
cheers
M
surfymark said:
Seany88 said:
Thanks for the replies. Its a 4 bed so I guess that means I'm exempt! But i thought that the property only had to meet one of the regulations to count as a HMO - is that definitely wrong?
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
You should be exempt but I would call the council to check (anonymously, don't give any details!!). And yes I would get fire extinguishers too, they are pretty cheap. The rest you are spot on I think.I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
cheers
M
Like yours, my property is also on 3 floors and also divided into bedrooms, the important criteria is the number of floors, and not the number of tenants, so rather than place any future restrictions on the property, get the property inspected first.
In Bristol the local council staff are searching and following up inspections on properties that are advertised in both newspapers, the net and shop windows, with the criminal penalties are very high for those who fail to register their properties.
To conclude, the last thing you want is a fire, subsequent death or injury in a property that does not conform to HMO.
Wings said:
surfymark said:
Seany88 said:
Thanks for the replies. Its a 4 bed so I guess that means I'm exempt! But i thought that the property only had to meet one of the regulations to count as a HMO - is that definitely wrong?
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
You should be exempt but I would call the council to check (anonymously, don't give any details!!). And yes I would get fire extinguishers too, they are pretty cheap. The rest you are spot on I think.I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
cheers
M
Like yours, my property is also on 3 floors and also divided into bedrooms, the important criteria is the number of floors, and not the number of tenants, so rather than place any future restrictions on the property, get the property inspected first.
In Bristol the local council staff are searching and following up inspections on properties that are advertised in both newspapers, the net and shop windows, with the criminal penalties are very high for those who fail to register their properties.
To conclude, the last thing you want is a fire, subsequent death or injury in a property that does not conform to HMO.
It is obviously a money-making scheme cooked up by the government and local councils picking on the easy target of landlords again.
I enquired some time ago to a local council about creating an HMO out of a single storey bungalow for 4 occupants. I was told that while I didn't legally have to register it is an HMO, I needed to inform the council who would send round an inspector. They told me that any HMOs they inspect no matter how many floors or how many occupants would be served with an order for a fire alarm system just like the HMO one.
I believe this is corruption as it is obviously completely unnecessary. I would ring your council anonymously if I were you.
M
Seany88 said:
Thanks for the replies. Its a 4 bed so I guess that means I'm exempt! But i thought that the property only had to meet one of the regulations to count as a HMO - is that definitely wrong?
I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
If your renting to a family then your ok. If your renting 4 beds separately to unrelated people then your done for as has been mentioned allready. I think i will get most stuff up to spec anyway, though probably not a complete fire alarm system if it costs £6k! I assume smoke alarms, a fire blanket in the kitchen, carbon monoxide alarm and possibly emergency lighting (if its not too big a job) will do then? Do you still need fire extinguishers as I heard somewhere that they decided it was pointless as most people didn't know how to use one anyway!
With the former it is easier to escape from a fire in a single or two storey property, that it is from a three storey property.
Fire alarms, including emergency lighting do not have to cost as much as £6,000, I know my property’s did not.
As for the latter point, not so much money making, more the government protecting their backs with adverse criticism should fires such as the recent French fire take place. Both the HMO and the Deposit Schemes I am certain have been enforced/legislated on, to both
regulate landlords and collect taxes from the same.
Fire alarms, including emergency lighting do not have to cost as much as £6,000, I know my property’s did not.
As for the latter point, not so much money making, more the government protecting their backs with adverse criticism should fires such as the recent French fire take place. Both the HMO and the Deposit Schemes I am certain have been enforced/legislated on, to both
regulate landlords and collect taxes from the same.
If you're going for an HMO the Council have to post a notice on the property telling the public / local residents of the fact. They have a period within which they can object to the classification as an HMO.
It sounds very NIMBY but, in the last street we lived in (Falkirk, Scotland) a known local 'personality' decided to privately set up a house as an HMO without going through the proper channels. The student she had in were not the best in the world (I have nothing against students, I was one at the time), and they let the place run to ruin and she didn't lift a finger. There was a skip in the front yard with household refuse that attracted rats, they raced up and down the road in their 'Saxo' (or equivalent) tin cans and scared the local kids to the point that they'd actively cross a rat-run road on their own to get past the house.
No alterations were made to the property to make it an HMO compliant building - it was without firedoors, smoke alarms, there were too many people, not enough parking, noise at all hours and abuse of the locals. We had to put together a committee to get things resolved through the council and even had Police and the Environmental Health up to have a look. The EH officers laughed at the place.
This is just a story from the other side, where bad tennants caused more problems for a bad landlord. Do it right and the community won't mind, get it wrong and they'll make it impossible.
Of course, if you're onside with the locals, thats a big step.
Dr Rick
It sounds very NIMBY but, in the last street we lived in (Falkirk, Scotland) a known local 'personality' decided to privately set up a house as an HMO without going through the proper channels. The student she had in were not the best in the world (I have nothing against students, I was one at the time), and they let the place run to ruin and she didn't lift a finger. There was a skip in the front yard with household refuse that attracted rats, they raced up and down the road in their 'Saxo' (or equivalent) tin cans and scared the local kids to the point that they'd actively cross a rat-run road on their own to get past the house.
No alterations were made to the property to make it an HMO compliant building - it was without firedoors, smoke alarms, there were too many people, not enough parking, noise at all hours and abuse of the locals. We had to put together a committee to get things resolved through the council and even had Police and the Environmental Health up to have a look. The EH officers laughed at the place.
This is just a story from the other side, where bad tennants caused more problems for a bad landlord. Do it right and the community won't mind, get it wrong and they'll make it impossible.
Of course, if you're onside with the locals, thats a big step.
Dr Rick
Seany88 said:
Thanks for all the advice. Wings can you give me a rough ballpark of what the fire alarm system and emergency lighting should cost?
To give you an indication, for our five bed, four floor property in Manchester the entire bill for emergency lighting and alarm system came to ~£5000.Seany88 said:
Thanks for all the advice. Wings can you give me a rough ballpark of what the fire alarm system and emergency lighting should cost?
Price, well much depends on the layout of your property, together with how your local business economy is.As I said earlier best to get an inspection carried out by your local council’s environmental health department. Incidentally I have always found that working with the environmental health department can bring dividends, in so far they will give you plenty of time to carry out the works, and be more relaxed on the regulations.
After my property was inspected the environmental health drew up internal plans of the property, marking what doors had to be “fire doors”, doors that required “door closers”, positioning of the smoke detectors, fire alarm, and emergency lighting etc. etc.
Locks on internal bedroom doors had to be of a type that could be opened inside the room without the use of a key, with the landlord/manager having a master key to the same. I mentioned there a manager; the same person you designate for that position must have no criminal convictions.
The property if it’s got any gas appliances or gas central heating will require a Landlord’s Gas Safety Certificate, and an electrical NICEIC test certificate with any indication of works required doing
My property still has works pending to get it’s HMO license, one being that because I have more than 5 tenants in the property, the council wants the kitchen to either have 2 sinks with double set of taps, or a dish washer installed, will be installing the latter even though I know the tenants will never use the same. Other works include replacing or repairing the electronic ignition on a perfectly good, but dated gas cooker. This I will argue does not require doing, due to the costs being outlandish, since I have supplied a portable electronic battery operated lighter.
One bit of legislation my council are not yet pushing for, is wash basin sinks in every bedroom, if that should come about, then the costs for those works would be astronomical, and I would possibly look at another use for the property.
Got a quote, came in well under £5k at £1.5k. That's for 4 emergency lighting, 2-zone fire alarm control panel n 2 circuits, 4 break glass points, 7 optical smoke detectors and sounders, and fire, emergency lighting and electrical safety certs. Sounds pretty reasonable right?
Wiffmaster, you sound in the same area as me. Would you mind if I PM'd you with a few more questions and maybe to share a bit of knowledge?
Wiffmaster, you sound in the same area as me. Would you mind if I PM'd you with a few more questions and maybe to share a bit of knowledge?
Oh and with regards to the door locks, I was going to change them all to Euro locks with thumbturns on the inside, but thinking about it (and after working out the cost 
) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?
I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
Seany88 said:
Oh and with regards to the door locks, I was going to change them all to Euro locks with thumbturns on the inside, but thinking about it (and after working out the cost ) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?
I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
Funny you should ask about the 'thumbturns'. Man from the council has just been around our property and inspected it this morning, and apparently all exits need 'thumbturns' and Yale locks do not count as 'thumbturns'. So, we're going to have to get that changed. Also, the door rubbing strips for the bedrooms need to be changed for a different sort - even though the property is less than 5 years old they don't comply!) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
Everything else we were fine on apparently. Feel free to PM me if you want to ask any questions or come and have a look around. We're in the Rusholme/Victoria Park area.
Edited by wiffmaster on Friday 20th February 11:35
wiffmaster said:
Seany88 said:
Oh and with regards to the door locks, I was going to change them all to Euro locks with thumbturns on the inside, but thinking about it (and after working out the cost ) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?
I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
Funny you should ask about the 'thumbturns'. Man from the council has just been around our property and inspected it this morning, and apparently all exits need 'thumbturns' and Yale locks do not count as 'thumbturns'. So, we're going to have to get that changed. Also, the door rubbing strips for the bedrooms need to be changed for a different sort - even though the property is less than 5 years old they don't comply!) I may just stick with the yale latch-style locks that are currently on the doors...assuming they count as 'thumbturn'? I mean, you don't need a key to unlock from the inside...or does it literally need to be thumbturn?I've noticed the regs also state that the external door locks should be thumbturn on the inside...has everyone else complied with this? How does your buildings insurance stand on this? As it seems far easier for thieves to go through the letterbox to unlock the door with locks like that...oh plus i changed my door lock recently to a 5 lever mortice lock
Everything else we were fine on apparently. Feel free to PM me if you want to ask any questions or come and have a look around. We're in the Rusholme/Victoria Park area.
Edited by wiffmaster on Friday 20th February 11:35
What don't your strips comply on? I'm just about to buy them for 5-6 doors...is there a BS code or something that needs to be right?
Also i'll PM you later, thanks.
Seany88 said:
What don't your strips comply on? I'm just about to buy them for 5-6 doors...is there a BS code or something that needs to be right?
Also i'll PM you later, thanks.
I'm not entirely sure what the fire strips don't comply on - the chap said something about the fact we needed a two piece system as opposed to the one piece system currently in place. He's sending a report through next week with exact details and specifications, so I can hopefully let you know then.Also i'll PM you later, thanks.
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