Considering a Saab.....
Discussion
Hi all! Posting out of my usual turf here so bear with me.....
After attending my first PH hoon, I have once again caught the 'must have a faster car' bug. I usually get it every two months or so
For the price range I'm considering, a fellow PHer has pointed me in the direction of a Saab 900 turbo. Probably a fairly early one.
I'm basically looking for the lowdown. Is it a good idea? Is it likely to leave me stranded on the hard shoulder? How much does it cost to run etc etc....
I've always liked the look of the car, so any help would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers, Ian.
After attending my first PH hoon, I have once again caught the 'must have a faster car' bug. I usually get it every two months or so
For the price range I'm considering, a fellow PHer has pointed me in the direction of a Saab 900 turbo. Probably a fairly early one.
I'm basically looking for the lowdown. Is it a good idea? Is it likely to leave me stranded on the hard shoulder? How much does it cost to run etc etc....
I've always liked the look of the car, so any help would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers, Ian.
Yes, it will have to be a classic ('79-'93) 900 turbo rather than its Cavalier-based successor with which it only shares its designation and basic engine.
Although they have a reputation for being 'virtually indestructable' (Top Gear mag), these cars are getting on a bit now - so watch out for structural rust, particularly the box sections in the front clip where the driveshafts run through which is a particularly tricky place to weld. If it rots there, the affected car will have to be *very* nice otherwise not to be beyond economic repair. The other notorious rust areas (wheelarch flares, underside doors -mostly on the inside, the inside of the clamshell bonnet at the sides, near the doors/A-pillars) are non-structural and clearly visible.
Engines are bomb-proof and good for 250,000 miles at least if properly maintained. Older 8 valve heads can crack between 2nd and 3rd cylinder exhaust ports and exhaust manifolds are often cracked - the 16 valver blows a head gasket at worst and exhaust manifolds are more robust too. Do listen for timing chain rattles, expecially on higher mileage engines.
The gearbox is the Achilles' heel of the classic 900 (especially the higher powered variants) - listen for the dreaded pinion bearing whine in 4th and 5th gear. Contrary to common belief, the 'box *can* handle a lot of power from an upgraded engine provided it's progressivley delivered, and don't indulge in traffic light GP's (pointless with this kind of car anyway - its forte is acceleration when on the move, particularly when overtaking, and cross-country pace).
'89-on models got an upgraded gearbox, and '91-on versions are stronger still.
Turbo's can be a cr*p shoot to assess - lots of smoke from the exhaust after 10-15 seconds sitting stationary with a warm engine does indicate that the one you have on the car is indeed busted. Fortunately, they're not that expensive to replace, and there's a multitude of upgrade routes.
The handling of the Turbo's should be nice and tight, with good steering feel. Again, these are older cars, so you're looking at replacing/upgrading springs and shocks at some point anyways (if they haven't been already). For maximum interactivity in an old-school hot hatch style, remove the front torsion bar on T16S models, or add just the rear bar on other models. Brakes are noticely better on '88-on (rear handbrake) models, at which point they also got the wheel bolt pattern of the 9000. ABS standard from '92 or so - pedal travel on ABS cars is quite short and the feel a bit 'wooden'.
Interiors are made of very high quality and hard-wearing materials. Avoid cars that look ragged inside.
Although they have a reputation for being 'virtually indestructable' (Top Gear mag), these cars are getting on a bit now - so watch out for structural rust, particularly the box sections in the front clip where the driveshafts run through which is a particularly tricky place to weld. If it rots there, the affected car will have to be *very* nice otherwise not to be beyond economic repair. The other notorious rust areas (wheelarch flares, underside doors -mostly on the inside, the inside of the clamshell bonnet at the sides, near the doors/A-pillars) are non-structural and clearly visible.
Engines are bomb-proof and good for 250,000 miles at least if properly maintained. Older 8 valve heads can crack between 2nd and 3rd cylinder exhaust ports and exhaust manifolds are often cracked - the 16 valver blows a head gasket at worst and exhaust manifolds are more robust too. Do listen for timing chain rattles, expecially on higher mileage engines.
The gearbox is the Achilles' heel of the classic 900 (especially the higher powered variants) - listen for the dreaded pinion bearing whine in 4th and 5th gear. Contrary to common belief, the 'box *can* handle a lot of power from an upgraded engine provided it's progressivley delivered, and don't indulge in traffic light GP's (pointless with this kind of car anyway - its forte is acceleration when on the move, particularly when overtaking, and cross-country pace).
'89-on models got an upgraded gearbox, and '91-on versions are stronger still.
Turbo's can be a cr*p shoot to assess - lots of smoke from the exhaust after 10-15 seconds sitting stationary with a warm engine does indicate that the one you have on the car is indeed busted. Fortunately, they're not that expensive to replace, and there's a multitude of upgrade routes.
The handling of the Turbo's should be nice and tight, with good steering feel. Again, these are older cars, so you're looking at replacing/upgrading springs and shocks at some point anyways (if they haven't been already). For maximum interactivity in an old-school hot hatch style, remove the front torsion bar on T16S models, or add just the rear bar on other models. Brakes are noticely better on '88-on (rear handbrake) models, at which point they also got the wheel bolt pattern of the 9000. ABS standard from '92 or so - pedal travel on ABS cars is quite short and the feel a bit 'wooden'.
Interiors are made of very high quality and hard-wearing materials. Avoid cars that look ragged inside.
Yes. And make sure it's a turbo - turbo and non-turbo 900's have *very* different characters. Oh, the 900S models is actually a 16 valve turbo without the intercooler and APC boost controller. Which makes it the sleeper of the range, with the same ultimate potential ofr performance as the full T16 models, but less likely to be $h*gged.
Buy a good'un, and you're unlikely to lose any money a couple of years on.
Buy a good'un, and you're unlikely to lose any money a couple of years on.
flooritforever said:
Cool. Advice much appreciated!
A couple of other things though....
What sort of fuel economy do they normally give? And I've heard mention of classic insurance for them. How does that work exactly?
Mid-to high 20s when driven normally, I think. I'm not sure how things are in the UK, but over here several insurance companies accept the Classic Saab 900 as a classic/collectable car nowadays and offer limited mileage policies.
My highly modified 281 bhp 900 Turbo monster is insured fully comprehensive at an agreed value of 15,000 euro (£10K, well I *did* say it's fairly comprehensively modified/rebuilt...
) mileage limited to 7,500 kms per annum, for about 500 euro...Eric's said it all already I think!
Great choice. I was very reticent about having it as a daily driver, but it has proved a reliable companion. It's let me down twice, (once the hall effect sensor, once a weld on the clutch pedal), but both easily sorted and could happen to any older car.
I get 25mpg in a T16S driving with a heavy right foot in a mixture of driving but a fair amount of urban stuff.
As stated, not quick off the line (maybe 8 secs to 60?), but I don't even try. Find a nice progressive twisty where you're in 3rd and above and it really flies
In the UK decent T16S are hard to come by, a lot of the LPTs are a better bet as they can be upgraded, but then it's the problem of insuring a modified car.
Mine is on normal insurance with Footman James who were very good. THe problem with classic insurance is that it is limited mileage. Practical Classics have done stories on this recently, it's almost impossible to insure a classic as a daily driver
They aren't cheap cars to run - as said, 25mpg and get a service at least every 6k miles. I have spent a lot on mine since I have had it, but much was by choice
There's a good enthusiast scene as well, and owners are generally friendly. I've been a bit disappointed by the fact that in a year of ownership I reckon I've had *1* wave off another classic driver
Can't think of anything else at the moment... any more questions feel free to ask
Great choice. I was very reticent about having it as a daily driver, but it has proved a reliable companion. It's let me down twice, (once the hall effect sensor, once a weld on the clutch pedal), but both easily sorted and could happen to any older car.
I get 25mpg in a T16S driving with a heavy right foot in a mixture of driving but a fair amount of urban stuff.
As stated, not quick off the line (maybe 8 secs to 60?), but I don't even try. Find a nice progressive twisty where you're in 3rd and above and it really flies
In the UK decent T16S are hard to come by, a lot of the LPTs are a better bet as they can be upgraded, but then it's the problem of insuring a modified car.
Mine is on normal insurance with Footman James who were very good. THe problem with classic insurance is that it is limited mileage. Practical Classics have done stories on this recently, it's almost impossible to insure a classic as a daily driver
They aren't cheap cars to run - as said, 25mpg and get a service at least every 6k miles. I have spent a lot on mine since I have had it, but much was by choice
There's a good enthusiast scene as well, and owners are generally friendly. I've been a bit disappointed by the fact that in a year of ownership I reckon I've had *1* wave off another classic driver
Can't think of anything else at the moment... any more questions feel free to ask
I've just sold my T16S: I accepted £2,500 for a '92 J-plate with 130k on the clock.
I'd owned it since 1998 and taken it from 65k to 130k, during which time I've had to replace the following:
Clutch slave cylinder
Thermostat
Front engine mount
Radiator
N/S/F wheel bearing
Rear ARB bushes
Alternator
N/S electric window gearbox
Front suspension balljoints
Otherwise it was serviced by an independant at 12k intervals with an extra DIY oil change in between and gave no trouble whatsoever.
Latterly the car was doing 15k plus miles a year taking me to and from work, which involves some entertaining cross-country roads, and in seven years of ownership only stranded me once, when the alternator failed and there wasn't quite enough energy in the battery to get me all the way home.
I was sorry to see it go, but rust - bonnet and engine bay - was beginning to be an issue and it no longer felt fair to pile on the miles as if it were a new car when I couldn't spare the time to look after it as thoroughly as it deserved.
Great car.
I'd say rust was your biggest question - as per 900T-R's list - if you were looking to get one: they're all at least twelve years old and weren't galvanised when they built them.
Nick.
I'd owned it since 1998 and taken it from 65k to 130k, during which time I've had to replace the following:
Clutch slave cylinder
Thermostat
Front engine mount
Radiator
N/S/F wheel bearing
Rear ARB bushes
Alternator
N/S electric window gearbox
Front suspension balljoints
Otherwise it was serviced by an independant at 12k intervals with an extra DIY oil change in between and gave no trouble whatsoever.
Latterly the car was doing 15k plus miles a year taking me to and from work, which involves some entertaining cross-country roads, and in seven years of ownership only stranded me once, when the alternator failed and there wasn't quite enough energy in the battery to get me all the way home.
I was sorry to see it go, but rust - bonnet and engine bay - was beginning to be an issue and it no longer felt fair to pile on the miles as if it were a new car when I couldn't spare the time to look after it as thoroughly as it deserved.
Great car.
I'd say rust was your biggest question - as per 900T-R's list - if you were looking to get one: they're all at least twelve years old and weren't galvanised when they built them.
Nick.
I just purchased this:
For £650. L Plate last of the line T16 S LPT with 127K on it.
Cat C Write off from 1997 but its been very well repaired with only a very slight bend to the inner wing on the drivers side giving the game away and I reckon it'd pull out if I was much bothered.
Paint has a few rought bits and the car in general needs a bit of TLC. No nasty structual rot anywhere, just a bit on the bottom of the passenger door and edge of bonnet.
Suspension is in desperate need of a rebuild and new balljoints/track rods/bushes as it feels floaty and disconnected at the moment.
With new paint, new Sachs Gas Dampers, Chargecooler, 220bhp, Trim 60 T3, 9000 front calipers and various other minor bits sorted it will have cost me around £1400. Bargain? I think so ;-)
The C900 is a brilliant, brilliant car. A T16, either FPT or LPT is a great companion and a pampered one will make for reliable, rapid and fun transport. If you spot one around my way and want someone to take a look at it I'd be more than happy.
Best Regards
Matt
>> Edited by Matt_FP on Monday 6th June 00:16
For £650. L Plate last of the line T16 S LPT with 127K on it.
Cat C Write off from 1997 but its been very well repaired with only a very slight bend to the inner wing on the drivers side giving the game away and I reckon it'd pull out if I was much bothered.
Paint has a few rought bits and the car in general needs a bit of TLC. No nasty structual rot anywhere, just a bit on the bottom of the passenger door and edge of bonnet.
Suspension is in desperate need of a rebuild and new balljoints/track rods/bushes as it feels floaty and disconnected at the moment.
With new paint, new Sachs Gas Dampers, Chargecooler, 220bhp, Trim 60 T3, 9000 front calipers and various other minor bits sorted it will have cost me around £1400. Bargain? I think so ;-)
The C900 is a brilliant, brilliant car. A T16, either FPT or LPT is a great companion and a pampered one will make for reliable, rapid and fun transport. If you spot one around my way and want someone to take a look at it I'd be more than happy.
Best Regards
Matt
>> Edited by Matt_FP on Monday 6th June 00:16
Good lad Matt, knew you'd have to get another! 
What's the story on that car? Unusual to see a late car like that with the Aero kit in a colour like that. Did it start life as an LPT? I notice it has the pre-90 "turbo" bonnet badges...
What you got planned?
Edited to say: just spotted it's an LPT
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Monday 6th June 00:35
What's the story on that car? Unusual to see a late car like that with the Aero kit in a colour like that. Did it start life as an LPT? I notice it has the pre-90 "turbo" bonnet badges...
What you got planned?
Edited to say: just spotted it's an LPT
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Monday 6th June 00:35
Not a great deal planned to be honest. This ones going to be a daily runabout so its not going to get much in the way of upgrades. Just a full service and check up and:
-9000 front calipers.
-Sachs gas dampers
-Probably some spare springs I have kicking about
-New ball joints and Track Rod Ends.
-Chargecooler (OEM ally IC with water jacket welded around it) air con is fubared so I'll be using the air-con rad as a CC pre rad.
-Probably an APC if I can find a loom and sensors, if not around 0.8bar boost constant.
-Needs a turbo as its got a Garrett Oil Cooled unit on there at the moment for some reason. Nice TE-05 will do the trick
-And some paint on a front wing and general tidying.
At some point I'll put another box on it as well as 2nd is rather crunchy at the moment!
Oh and some 16" Aero's + decent rubber. It'll do the trick nicely with that lot.
Matt
-9000 front calipers.
-Sachs gas dampers
-Probably some spare springs I have kicking about
-New ball joints and Track Rod Ends.
-Chargecooler (OEM ally IC with water jacket welded around it) air con is fubared so I'll be using the air-con rad as a CC pre rad.
-Probably an APC if I can find a loom and sensors, if not around 0.8bar boost constant.
-Needs a turbo as its got a Garrett Oil Cooled unit on there at the moment for some reason. Nice TE-05 will do the trick
-And some paint on a front wing and general tidying.
At some point I'll put another box on it as well as 2nd is rather crunchy at the moment!
Oh and some 16" Aero's + decent rubber. It'll do the trick nicely with that lot.
Matt
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