Mk1 + PTP160 starting problems

[Gilbern]

I have had a PTP 160 kit fitted to my Mk 1 Elise, OK I have only just been shown this site and seen some of the comments on it about the kit. I now need some help as my car has developed an interesting fault. When it is hot and the cooling fan comes on it is impossible to start if turned off! When it cools down it starts OK. Today I tried to start it, its cold, and the same problem occured. The symptoms are the cooling fan comes on, the relay/s chatter and you cannot hear the fuel pump.
I had a new battery fitted about two months ago as well as a new starter relay. I put the new battery on charge and it charged for about 2 hrs. Any ideas?

P.S The car runs very well once it has started and the kit has transformed the car in terms of performance.

>>> Edited by Gilbern on Sunday 9th January 12:18

[steff]

Take it back to who ever fitted the kit/or give PTP a call?

May be something in the archive on www.british-cars.co.uk

[fergusd]

I'd check that everything is plugged in correctly first . . . the new ECU and it's adapter cable for a start . . .

Failing that could be an MFRU fault, ECU fault, wiring fault . . .

If you can't diagnose yourself, you need to take it to someone who can.

Fd

[steff]

Have you just fitted the 160 kit? What did it consist of?

Has it still got the standard MEMS ecu?

Check all the plugs and conections, could try cleaning the connections on the blue and brown temp senders if the fan is coming on when cold.

what is the voltage of the battery with the engine off/on?

[fergusd]

steff said:

Has it still got the standard MEMS ecu?

No . . . the kit comes (came ?) with a replacement ECU . . .

Fd

[north nob]

So Mr A, did you get it sorted? Its pulling that horse box that kills it.

[Gilbern]

Thanks North Nob, do you think so, I wanted to increase the horsepower not tow it.
P.S. still got the problem, have checked all the connections and cleaned them but no change.

[LOTOPETE]

hi check main engine earth lead down by gearbox you may be better putting a new one on as they are crimped connectors and we are having a few problems with them now.

[Gilbern]

Thanks for all the helpful ideas, I am checking them all as they come in but so far the problem still exists!
I now have a clear idea of the symptoms: When the car is hot and the cooling fan comes on you cannot start the car. The starter motor turns the engine over fine but it will not fire up, it is dead. So,if say you had been on a fast run of about 50 miles and stopped for petrol, turned the engine off, when you try to leave you turn the key the fan would come on, the engine would turn over but not start. If you feel the multi function relay unit it is switching on and off. The cure seems to be either to wait about 1 hour for it to cool down or charge the new battery.
Keep thinking, I am sure somebody must have had a similar problem or have I got a unique Elise?

P.S. Still got to check the earth lead, can see it from the top but easier from underneath which requires the use of my friends lift which is not available today. Would the starter motor work if this was a poor connection?

[Postie]

Another possibility is fuel evaporation.

Modern fuel injection systems pump the fuel through much quicker than the engine uses it, the excess being returned via a separate fuel line to the tank. An effect of this is that the fuel passes by any sources of heat quicker and so remains cooler. When the engine is turned off, the fuel obviously stops, and any sitting in a fuel line near a source of heat will evaporate. This results in poor hot starting. Once the engine is running, the fast flow of fuel through the lines prevents it happening again until it's switched off etc etc.

[fergusd]

Postie said:

Another possibility is fuel evaporation. Modern fuel injection systems pump the fuel through much quicker than the engine uses it, the excess being returned via a separate fuel line to the tank. An effect of this is that the fuel passes by any sources of heat quicker and so remains cooler. When the engine is turned off, the fuel obviously stops, and any sitting in a fuel line near a source of heat will evaporate. This results in poor hot starting. Once the engine is running, the fast flow of fuel through the lines prevents it happening again until it's switched off etc etc.

Uh huh . . . except this engine holds the fuel under pressure in the fuel rail for hours after shutdown, so this is at best extremely unlikely . . .

If the fan is running when it should not be then I'd start looking at that . . . your descriptions of the problem are insufficient to guess any more.

Fd

[Postie]

fergusd said:

Uh huh . . . except this engine holds the fuel under pressure in the fuel rail for hours after shutdown, so this is at best extremely unlikely . . . Fd

So do most fuel injected cars, but percolation isn't unheard of. A mid engined car with a "cramped" engine bay would be a good candidate to my mind, and the symptoms fit exactly.

On the subject of fuel, it might also be worth checking out the feed to the pump when you crank the engine over hot. I'm not sure of the exact location of the pump relay on the Elise, but on a lot of cars it is mounted directly in the engine bay where it gets subjected to heat, damp and vibration. These relays can and do break down intermittently (at first) when they get hot, and may explain why you cannot hear the pump when the engine doesn't start. Incidentally, just because a relay is clicking does not mean it is passing current.

In any case it should be simple to ascertain whether the problem is fuel (check out pump relay/feed and if no joy, system pressure) or ignition (simple HT tester) related.




>> Edited by Postie on Monday 3rd January 22:26

[340ragtop]

nah.

Are you sure the timing is right? If it's a little out it can do all of the above. I'd get the timing checked peoperly (LATDC method) - take it back to the fitter IMHO.

[fergusd]

Postie said:

So do most fuel injected cars, but percolation isn't unheard of. A mid engined car with a "cramped" engine bay would be a good candidate to my mind, and the symptoms fit exactly.

I've never, ever, seen an Elise with that problem . . . red hot off a track, into the pits, they never don't start . . . ever . . . you're barking up the wrong tree.

Fd

[Gilbern]

I dont think it is a fuel or timing problem as the car is fine once you have it started. Bear in mind that this only started when the PTP kit was fitted, the car was fine for 34,000 miles. Which temp sender goes to the ECU and which to the temp guage? Does anyone know where the fan thermostat / switch is?
Keep the ideas coming please.

[Postie]

fergusd said:

you're barking up the wrong tree. Fd

OK, so the problem is???


>> Edited by Postie on Tuesday 4th January 15:21

[fergusd]

Postie said:

fergusd said: you're barking up the wrong tree. Fd OK, so the problem is??? >> Edited by Postie on Tuesday 4th January 15:21

. . . not what you think it is . . .

Evidence :

Previously the original poster said when cranking the engine from cold he was getting the cooling fan operating . . . and it wouldn't start (just like when it was hot), and he couldn't head the fuel pump . . .

So . . .

a) cooling fan should not be running when the engine is cold
b) no fuel pump == no go (I'd still test the pump supply with a multimeter though)
c) ECU controls both fuel pump and cooling fan
d) ECU uses relays in MFRU to do so
e) never heard of an elise getting fuel evap in the fuel rail when cold (or for that matter hot)

So my original post of, ECU/MFRU/wiring problem is something I'll stand by, until more evidence to the contrary is discovered (which I expect it will be when someone who knows these cars has a look).

All of the above based on logical thought and a knowledge of the car rather than pure guesswork

Cheers

Fd

[steff]

Gilbern said:

Which temp sender goes to the ECU and which to the temp guage?

Brown to the ECU Blue to the stack on the top left hand side of the engine block as you look at the back of the car.

Gilbern said:

Does anyone know where the fan thermostat / switch is?

Controlled by the brown temp sender via the ecu.

[Gilbern]

Keep them coming, all will be checked out. I might try disconnecting the temp sender to the ecu once I have the car hot, and it is refusing to start, to see if this allows the car to start. What do you think?

[VFX]

I had a PTP 165 kit fitted to my S2 and had similar problems. I also had a problem the when hot it would not tick over when restarted. It was a nightmare.

It was fitted by PTP themselves, they had it back a number of times and never got the problem sorted. I eventually had them remove the kit and had a DVA kit fitted. Had no problems since.

Sorry I could not be more positive.

Good luck anyway!