End of the K series???

[just1]

With the end of rover looking unavoidable, what will be the future for the entry spec elise and 111s? I am sure that is not going to grind to a holt overnight on these models but the question is (a)how long before the supply of this powerplant dries up (b) What will replace it? Will toyota offer up a basic or detuned lump or will lotus look elsewhere (ie Honda)?

The other possibility is that these entry models will be phased out over a period of time.

Your thoughts please.

[Tim Netherton]

Maybe they will just phase out the K-series Elises now and just offer the 111R

[Alex]

SAIC have bought the K-Series production line and intellectual property.

[jHamshaw]

Hopfully that will keep the spares supply going then - at least there are plenty of K's out there......

[gooby]

SAIC took on engine manufacture a while back. The same plant produces the engines for the freelander. There will be engines produced for some time! They may be produced in china but so is everything else so I wouldnt worry.

[Ju.]

There are a massive amount of Kseries engines being used in sports cars so i doubt it will be phased out.

Lotus will not just phase out the low entry models because they make alot of money for the company.

I would expect if anything they would use the same engine as a new MR2 but you will see a 60Kg increase in weight

[S Works]

Seems to me it would make more sense for them to consider investing in or investigating something like the Duratec lump conversion which Geary's developing.

Cheaper, lighter, reliable, more grunt etc.

[Ju.]

Thats the main disadvantage of the jap engines all the extra weight

[GCCK]

There's a non VVTi Toyota engine as used in lower spec Celica's & Corollas. Presumably will fit the same subframe as the VVTi? Gotta be line of least resistance if the tooling is all the same.

[[k]ar|]

I agree with GCCK. Would make sense to rationalise production of the rear subframes if supply of the K-series became an issue. I don't think it will, however, for the reasons stated above.

I suppose another option might be to look at the Honda engines that are related to the K-series, but I don't know much about them, save for the Civic Type-R conversions I've seen around. Do these fit into the S2?

[k]

[S Works]

karl said:

I agree with GCCK. Would make sense to rationalise production of the rear subframes if supply of the K-series became an issue. I don't think it will, however, for the reasons stated above. I suppose another option might be to look at the Honda engines that are related to the K-series, but I don't know much about them, save for the Civic Type-R conversions I've seen around. Do these fit into the S2? [k]

Why? Surely the subframes are one of the cheaper options to re-design? And as for the Honda lumps, they're more expensive than the Duratec ones and offer about the same power with more weight.

IIRC Duratec's are about £1300 new, Honda CTR lumps are closer to the £10k mark.

>> Edited by S Works on Friday 8th April 23:26

[Ju.]

The whole point of the elise is to be a light weight sports car and thast the reason why the K series was chosen it was the cheapest engine that met there specs and was also the lightest.

I think if they start to use a new engine they have to consider weight or before long a lotus elise will be too heavy there is already an 80Kg difference in the 2 exiges, i have an early elise the lighter ones 721Kgs put a heavier engine in and the weight will rocket up

[[k]ar|]

Sworks - I don't know much about the Duratec conversion and a quick Google only brought up a basic specs sheet on teamnitron.co.uk. Do you have any linkage to companies offering the conversion?

Thanks in advance!

[k]

[Scuffham]

S Works said:

karl said: I agree with GCCK. Would make sense to rationalise production of the rear subframes if supply of the K-series became an issue. I don't think it will, however, for the reasons stated above. I suppose another option might be to look at the Honda engines that are related to the K-series, but I don't know much about them, save for the Civic Type-R conversions I've seen around. Do these fit into the S2? [k] Why? Surely the subframes are one of the cheaper options to re-design? And as for the Honda lumps, they're more expensive than the Duratec ones and offer about the same power with more weight. IIRC Duratec's are about £1300 new, Honda CTR lumps are closer to the £10k mark. >> Edited by S Works on Friday 8th April 23:26

err - no...

Honda engine + box new are nothing like £10K, more like ~£4K

[S Works]

karl said:

Sworks - I don't know much about the Duratec conversion and a quick Google only brought up a basic specs sheet on teamnitron.co.uk. Do you have any linkage to companies offering the conversion? Thanks in advance! [k]

Check out the thread on SELOC which is talking about the conversion developed by Geary of Eliseparts...
http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.php?tid=45363

Scuffham said:

S Works said: karl said: I agree with GCCK. Would make sense to rationalise production of the rear subframes if supply of the K-series became an issue. I don't think it will, however, for the reasons stated above. I suppose another option might be to look at the Honda engines that are related to the K-series, but I don't know much about them, save for the Civic Type-R conversions I've seen around. Do these fit into the S2? [k] Why? Surely the subframes are one of the cheaper options to re-design? And as for the Honda lumps, they're more expensive than the Duratec ones and offer about the same power with more weight. IIRC Duratec's are about £1300 new, Honda CTR lumps are closer to the £10k mark. err - no... Honda engine + box new are nothing like £10K, more like ~£4K

It appears I sit corrected - however, from what I've read the Duretec is still cheaper & lighter.

>> Edited by S Works on Sunday 10th April 22:54

[dannylt]

An untuned crate Duratec is cheaper, but develops a lot less power as standard. I'm not sure if it's lighter. A standard 2.3 Duratec makes about 150bhp - throw enough bits at it and you can get 250ish, but it's not cheap.

Having had a Honda engine in the Elise, you don't notice the extra weight or change in distribution - the difference is too marginal, and the extra torque and power easily make up for it.

[NDT]

doubt that K-series production will end for a while.
Freelander continues to use it until the new model appears (06/07?), Lotus buy a few and MG will be resurrected as a sports car business selling the TF.

I would assume that there is just enough volume to make it viable to build the engine, although it doesn't sound like a business with a long term future, just limp along for a couple of years until nobody wants to buy engines any more.

[catboy]

I worked on the design of a small sports car which I was trying to push in the direction of the K-Series (this is going back 6yrs or so), however they ended up using the Duratec engine.. IMHO its a bit of a donk, and I would far rather they went the K-Series route. Its a very clever and revolutionary design (even today) and exceptionally light. Its got a bit of a bad rap recently through flywheels being lightened to next to nothing, and rev limits being pushed through the roof, causing massive failures..

Its a shame rover wouldnt sell the VVi version of their engine to companies like lotus and caterham for so long (I believe in the begining they kept it as their own engine) as that was a lot more advanced than the VTEC of the time with infinitley variable (within top and bottom limits) valve timing, rather than the on-off of the pre I-VTEC system honda were using.

As mentioned earlier, there are a lot of applications for this engine currently (outside of the pheonix consortiums car group) so I dont see it dying off anytime soon, however I expect people like caterham and lotus to start looking elsewhere. Seen as lotus already offer the toyota engine in the top spec elise and exige, I would imagine they will go that route and use a downspec'ed version from the celica/mr2 for the entry level elise's...

Sorry for the exceptionally long rambling..

b