Deja vu... 111S or 111R?
Discussion
Sorry for bringing up a famous old topic! I've done a good search on this forum and have been reading a fair bit about people's opinions, but would still like to see some fresh thoughts on this if you can tolerate discussing this for the 43rd time! 
As many of you may know, I've had my heart set on an S2 111S since about October last year. I'm still driving round in my BMW because I can't sell it, but I'm steadily dropping the price and someday soon I will have £20-£22k to spend on my Elise
. I've test driven a standard S1, S2 and an S2 111S, and the S2 111S was one of the finest road cars I've ever driven - I was absolutely smitten. I've yet to drive a 111R, but this will change soon.
Thing is - I'm starting to wonder whether I should get a 111R instead of the 111S? I just had a Lotus dealer on the phone telling me he's got a nice 111R in at a good price as well. I'll be test driving it very soon (maybe this Saturday) - sadly though the dealer doesn't have a 111S in stock and it's been a few months since I drove the 111S.
Everyone's requirements are different, but here's what I want out of a car, in order of preference:
• Good controls. I have to feel at one with a car. This is why I love Caterhams, and why I love the Elise. I can't stand computers and assisted controls getting in the way of this driver-car harmony. Ergo, I'm worried about the 111R's servo brakes... I always heel and toe as well (I can't change down any other way - I've tried to learn and find it tricky), and I've heard that the 111R brake pedal isn't ideally suited to this.
• Great ride and handling. The car has to ride well, from a handling and grip perspective, rather than a comfort one. I like the way Elises float in a jiggly way over the road with the wheels maintaining permament contact with the road. In addition to that, the handling has to be light and responsive - extra mass is not good. That 111R weighs more than the 111S doesn't it...
• Everyday useability. This is going to be my daily drive so I would like some comfort. This is my reasoning behind the 111S, and I would want the Touring Pack on a 111R for this reason.
• Performance. I'm not bothered about Top Gear lap times or anything silly like that. I like to feel good performance when I accelerate out of a corner, so having torque low down is very important to me (thus the 111S). Also, most of my driving is to work or to the gym, and they're both only 15 minutes away. I refuse to rev an engine beyond 4k or 5k when it's only been running 10 minutes (most of my journey), so useable performance low down is important to me.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Thanks.
As many of you may know, I've had my heart set on an S2 111S since about October last year. I'm still driving round in my BMW because I can't sell it, but I'm steadily dropping the price and someday soon I will have £20-£22k to spend on my Elise
. I've test driven a standard S1, S2 and an S2 111S, and the S2 111S was one of the finest road cars I've ever driven - I was absolutely smitten. I've yet to drive a 111R, but this will change soon. Thing is - I'm starting to wonder whether I should get a 111R instead of the 111S? I just had a Lotus dealer on the phone telling me he's got a nice 111R in at a good price as well. I'll be test driving it very soon (maybe this Saturday) - sadly though the dealer doesn't have a 111S in stock and it's been a few months since I drove the 111S.
Everyone's requirements are different, but here's what I want out of a car, in order of preference:
• Good controls. I have to feel at one with a car. This is why I love Caterhams, and why I love the Elise. I can't stand computers and assisted controls getting in the way of this driver-car harmony. Ergo, I'm worried about the 111R's servo brakes... I always heel and toe as well (I can't change down any other way - I've tried to learn and find it tricky), and I've heard that the 111R brake pedal isn't ideally suited to this.
• Great ride and handling. The car has to ride well, from a handling and grip perspective, rather than a comfort one. I like the way Elises float in a jiggly way over the road with the wheels maintaining permament contact with the road. In addition to that, the handling has to be light and responsive - extra mass is not good. That 111R weighs more than the 111S doesn't it...
• Everyday useability. This is going to be my daily drive so I would like some comfort. This is my reasoning behind the 111S, and I would want the Touring Pack on a 111R for this reason.
• Performance. I'm not bothered about Top Gear lap times or anything silly like that. I like to feel good performance when I accelerate out of a corner, so having torque low down is very important to me (thus the 111S). Also, most of my driving is to work or to the gym, and they're both only 15 minutes away. I refuse to rev an engine beyond 4k or 5k when it's only been running 10 minutes (most of my journey), so useable performance low down is important to me.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Thanks
.RobM77 said:
* Performance. I'm not bothered about Top Gear lap times or anything silly like that. I like to feel good performance when I accelerate out of a corner, so having torque low down is very important to me (thus the 111S). Also, most of my driving is to work or to the gym, and they're both only 15 minutes away. I refuse to rev an engine beyond 4k or 5k when it's only been running 10 minutes (most of my journey), so useable performance low down is important to me.
The peak torque on the Toyota engine comes in at high revs but what there is low down is just fine around town, unless you're intent on serious thrashing from the lights. Mine does seem to take a fair bit longer to warm up than the K-series so you might not be at proper working temp before getting to your gym.
P.S. An S1 Elise owing mate of mine took the Exige out recently and asked me what I'd done to fix the heel and toe issue as he'd been getting on OK doing it but had heard it was difficult. "Nothing" was the answer - I don't H'n'T so had no need to fix anything. Have a go for yourself when you test drive rather than follow what the hive mind says.
Best of luck, you'll have fun with whichever one you get.
Best of luck, you'll have fun with whichever one you get.
Hey Rob!
Now, I'm really not any expert - a long, long way from many of the experienced and knowledgeable lads and lasses on here, but... I'm soon gonna take the plunge and I'm not interested in anything but a 111R!
That has probably come about because I have a big old deep-seated hate for all things Rover, and that for me eliminates the K obviously. Yes, I am a pussy ex-TT owner, so also used to the build & comforts of Audi, but they've all gone now in favour of the pure heart and soul that surrounds Lotus
The R was arguably also aimed at my 'typical area' of the market as well as the U.S. and has therefore succeeded on that score. If you have no aversion to Rover, then obviously what the other guys here say about the difference in engine feel is where it's gonna all be at for ya
For what its worth from me, I thought the R was stunning. Of course it's now a long way removed from the original S1 and so on (for better or worse), but still amazing in its own right. Beyond that, I guess there ain't too much of a tearing difference between 111S & 111R... oh, a few grand maybe?
Get stuck in and draw your conclusions behind the wheel!
Now, I'm really not any expert - a long, long way from many of the experienced and knowledgeable lads and lasses on here, but... I'm soon gonna take the plunge and I'm not interested in anything but a 111R!
That has probably come about because I have a big old deep-seated hate for all things Rover, and that for me eliminates the K obviously. Yes, I am a pussy ex-TT owner, so also used to the build & comforts of Audi, but they've all gone now in favour of the pure heart and soul that surrounds Lotus
The R was arguably also aimed at my 'typical area' of the market as well as the U.S. and has therefore succeeded on that score. If you have no aversion to Rover, then obviously what the other guys here say about the difference in engine feel is where it's gonna all be at for ya
For what its worth from me, I thought the R was stunning. Of course it's now a long way removed from the original S1 and so on (for better or worse), but still amazing in its own right. Beyond that, I guess there ain't too much of a tearing difference between 111S & 111R... oh, a few grand maybe?
Get stuck in and draw your conclusions behind the wheel!
Rob, a qualifying question, will you be 100% road driving or doing any track time ? If road then I would suggest that you can learn to deal with the squidgy ABS pedal of the R and crusin around with ABS has got to be a good thing.
If you are going to track, you may be tempted to modify and in that case an S will be cheeper car so leave you more cash to spend and you'll be removing less expensive parts that you can also re-sell easily to S1 owners unlike the R.
HB
If you are going to track, you may be tempted to modify and in that case an S will be cheeper car so leave you more cash to spend and you'll be removing less expensive parts that you can also re-sell easily to S1 owners unlike the R.
HB
for primarily road use then Id get the newer 111R, with touring pack, aircon etc
As above - any intentions on tracking it regular and if you want to start tinkering with it in a big way, then cheap early S2.
The S2111S is in kind of a no-mans land at the moment and I think prices reflect this.......
As above - any intentions on tracking it regular and if you want to start tinkering with it in a big way, then cheap early S2.
The S2111S is in kind of a no-mans land at the moment and I think prices reflect this.......
Thank you so much for your insights - I appreciate that this one has been done to death before!
You're right, the test drive tells all, and I am going to get a test drive as soon as possible (maybe this Saturday); but I made a big mistake with my current car (BMW 330ci) as I didn't do any research before I bought it (other than EVO, which I now read with a healthy scepticism). In conjunction with a test drive, even a generous Lotus half hour one, I would like to speak to as many owners as possible first this time before I waste my money again!
The car is for 100% road use. I may be tempted onto a track with the Lotus, but I race as well and obviously therefore have a seperate car for using on the track.
This spongy servo assisted brake pedal sounds pretty awful, but we'll see how we go - everyone's feet are different. To be honest, I found heel and toe very hard in the 111S! I can't remember the details, but IIRC the pedal height was wrong - I think it went too low. It didn't concern me at the time, as the salesman swore blind that the pedals were fully adjustable. I now know that they're not, so as I said - you need to do your research first!
thanks again. I'll report back after my test drive!
You're right, the test drive tells all, and I am going to get a test drive as soon as possible (maybe this Saturday); but I made a big mistake with my current car (BMW 330ci) as I didn't do any research before I bought it (other than EVO, which I now read with a healthy scepticism). In conjunction with a test drive, even a generous Lotus half hour one, I would like to speak to as many owners as possible first this time before I waste my money again!
The car is for 100% road use. I may be tempted onto a track with the Lotus, but I race as well and obviously therefore have a seperate car for using on the track.
This spongy servo assisted brake pedal sounds pretty awful, but we'll see how we go - everyone's feet are different. To be honest, I found heel and toe very hard in the 111S! I can't remember the details, but IIRC the pedal height was wrong - I think it went too low. It didn't concern me at the time, as the salesman swore blind that the pedals were fully adjustable. I now know that they're not, so as I said - you need to do your research first!
thanks again. I'll report back after my test drive!
Rob
Your requirements sound IDENTICAL to what I do with my car. Even down to the 10mins to the gym and work thing each day!! I have an MY04 S2 111S (so I get all the cool stuff like electric windows, remote locking).
When I bought my car, a 111R wasn't in my budget (nearly 1yr ago) but they have come down alot since then. I think the 111Rs will hold their prices better - as someone mentioned above, my type age 111S' do seem to be a bit in no man's land at the moment - this could however mean that you get a cracking price on an MY04 111S!!!
I think the key for you will be the low down torque. My engine is not 'peaky' like the R is, and as such the everyday drives to work are far more enjoyable, and i get up to 90 on the short dual carriageway without even going above 3.5k revs. With a peaky R engine on such drives, it MAY prove very frustrating.
As I say, your requirements sound exactly how I used my car - and I am in love with my 111S. Perhaps I would have bought a 111R if I could have afforded it; not least because Toyota is, obviously, the direction Lotus is taking for the forseeable future.
So, what does it come down to? In my opinion, a few things;
1: which engine characteristics do you prefer
2: if you went for a 111S, you could get a superb deal considering current market
3: what deals, if any, can you get on a 111R
4: Toyota or Rover. It's kinda a Pepsi or Coke question; everyone wants different
Your requirements sound IDENTICAL to what I do with my car. Even down to the 10mins to the gym and work thing each day!! I have an MY04 S2 111S (so I get all the cool stuff like electric windows, remote locking).
When I bought my car, a 111R wasn't in my budget (nearly 1yr ago) but they have come down alot since then. I think the 111Rs will hold their prices better - as someone mentioned above, my type age 111S' do seem to be a bit in no man's land at the moment - this could however mean that you get a cracking price on an MY04 111S!!!
I think the key for you will be the low down torque. My engine is not 'peaky' like the R is, and as such the everyday drives to work are far more enjoyable, and i get up to 90 on the short dual carriageway without even going above 3.5k revs. With a peaky R engine on such drives, it MAY prove very frustrating.
As I say, your requirements sound exactly how I used my car - and I am in love with my 111S. Perhaps I would have bought a 111R if I could have afforded it; not least because Toyota is, obviously, the direction Lotus is taking for the forseeable future.
So, what does it come down to? In my opinion, a few things;
1: which engine characteristics do you prefer
2: if you went for a 111S, you could get a superb deal considering current market
3: what deals, if any, can you get on a 111R
4: Toyota or Rover. It's kinda a Pepsi or Coke question; everyone wants different
Thanks Tony. Hopefully there are deals out there on the 111S, yes! Prices are still high at Lotus dealerships, but maybe I should try and see what deals can be done! (04 111Ss are on Lotus forecourts at about £22k). I'm supposed to be buying my first house this year, so I don't want to spend a penny more than I have to on a car...
I haven't had good experiences with my local dealer (and neither have two friends of mine), so I've been to the excellent Bell and Colvill, who are just over an hour's drive from me. Thing is, I don't want to mess them about too much as I don't actually have the money to hand until I've sold my BMW. They've already been good to me by giving me test drives in an S2 160 and an S2 111S when I explained that I hadn't sold my BMW yet - so I don't want to push my luck given that I don't have the money immediately to hand. However, another dealer that is only slightly further away rung me the other day talking about this 111R that is in at a good price and inviting me down for a test drive. They don't have a 111S sadly. My memory of the 111S is fairly fresh in my mind, but it was a few months ago!
When I have the money (hopefully very soon), I'll definately get a back-to-back test drive if I feel that it is a close call between the two cars.
When I have the money (hopefully very soon), I'll definately get a back-to-back test drive if I feel that it is a close call between the two cars.
hbaumhardt said:
You shouldnt pay more than £18k for a "straight" 3 year old <18k mile S2 111S in tip-top condition private. Sorry if you own one and thought it was worth more .. I do and I did :-(
For the previous generation one I would agree, but for the model year '04 cars (with elec windows, remote locking etc) I would suggest slightly more. Not much though!
Well, I've booked a test drive for one o'clock on Saturday; so I'll report back here and let you know my thoughts on Saturday afternoon or Sunday!
I've been doing lots of reading about the 111R, and the overall impression seems to be that it is a little better than the 111S in body control, handling etc. The only criticism thrown at it by magazines is the servo brakes and that dead zone at the top of the pedal. I shall see for myself!
I find it rather amusing that Lotus used to be the only mainstream volume manufacturer that had fully manual controls in their cars, and as such produced the best cars to drive. The only criticisms I have of BMW, Porsche etc are their assisted controls. You'd think that would be a simple mantra then? If you have a car that weighs under a tonne, keep the manual controls and have a superb driver's car. The second that Lotus decide to put on a modern silly device that goes against this ethos, it becomes a flaw in the car! so daft it is funny!
I've been doing lots of reading about the 111R, and the overall impression seems to be that it is a little better than the 111S in body control, handling etc. The only criticism thrown at it by magazines is the servo brakes and that dead zone at the top of the pedal. I shall see for myself!
I find it rather amusing that Lotus used to be the only mainstream volume manufacturer that had fully manual controls in their cars, and as such produced the best cars to drive. The only criticisms I have of BMW, Porsche etc are their assisted controls. You'd think that would be a simple mantra then? If you have a car that weighs under a tonne, keep the manual controls and have a superb driver's car. The second that Lotus decide to put on a modern silly device that goes against this ethos, it becomes a flaw in the car!
so daft it is funny!RobM77 said:
the 111R, and the overall impression seems to be that it is a little better than the 111S in body control, handling etc
I'm not doing a defensive S owner thing but ... eh, what ? The differences in the rear sub frame, engine masss etc and therefore CofG are not going to make much difference unless you are running 10/10ths at the limit and even then its debatable which is better.
I'm going to plump for defending the S, having one, but not driven an R. Can't see the point spending that much more money on something that is almost the same. They both go like stink, I doubt there's really much in it. You are getting a newer car, but hey, a 3 year old S has taken most of the depreciation hit, you can spend a bit on upgrades etc. If it interests you, you get better MPG from the S as well, really good news if it's a daily car. I also like the position of the exhausts on the pre-R cars...
Choice is yours though, they're both top cars, only I wouldn't be able to justify all that extra cash on the R - maybe an Exige....
Choice is yours though, they're both top cars, only I wouldn't be able to justify all that extra cash on the R - maybe an Exige....
:0 No, that's fine - it surprised me as well in my neutral standpoint of owning neither.
Apparently (according to Autocar), the springs and dampers have been completely reworked. The overall spring stiffness is up by 20%, but the ride/handling compromise is said to be "even better", offering "more comfort and more confidence inspiring handling".
To be completely honest, if you want my opinion then I reckon that journalists, no matter how good, can't detect and judge such small things with the 111R in isolation over a road they don't know, so they just re-phrase the launch blurb given to them by Lotus and publish that
Apparently (according to Autocar), the springs and dampers have been completely reworked. The overall spring stiffness is up by 20%, but the ride/handling compromise is said to be "even better", offering "more comfort and more confidence inspiring handling".
To be completely honest, if you want my opinion then I reckon that journalists, no matter how good, can't detect and judge such small things with the 111R in isolation over a road they don't know, so they just re-phrase the launch blurb given to them by Lotus and publish that
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