Elise - what they should do
Discussion
My friend bought an early S1 Elise and I went out in it at the weekend. Nice car for the money 
.
However, he came to my house party from Cambridge to Cheltenham on the M4 and dual carriageways. I would have thought it would be perfectly decent for this sort of journey (but no fun), but according to the passenger it was pretty horrendous! When he rang me up it sounded like they were in a grandstand at Donington, and it also sounded like they had all the windows open and the roof off which they did not.
After my little ride - when I saw its an amazing sports car - I agree that whilst the ride good and it's a capable everyday car (its even cheap to run), little things like the mechanical engine noise even at idle, and the total lack of seat padding, spoil things. The difficulty of entry/exit I could mostly live with, knowing its inherent in the chassis design.
All my friends saw it and loved it, some of them proclaiming 'wow im going to buy one'. However, I suspect after they (try to) get in it and go out in one, they may change their minds. Yes the performance is brilliant for a 1.8 and the lightweight agility incredible, but 99.8% of buyers would happily trade some of this for some comfort. I don't mean 4 seats and climate control, but seat padding and less of the bad engine noises from behind your ear. (but intake/exhaust noise is all good).
So I ask:
A) Is this what the Europa is? If they're aiming it at less 'enthusiast' and more 'everyday' buyers, why did they make it so ugly?
B) Should the Elise have grown into the new Europa's shoes? Everyone knows and recognises the Elise and would love to buy one if it was a bit more comfortable. Then you would have the Elises looks and image but the comforts to sell it to everyday buyers = a winner. Instead they've got to sell a practically unheard of, unseen new Lotus to everyday Joes which will be difficult.
Then they would simply introduce a brand new model, beneath the larger Elise/Europa, with the super lightweight, no compromise formula, and enthusiasts will lap it up.
This would be much easier than their current difficulty of trying to sell a new, ugly, unheard of model and an Elise which has been around essentially unchanged for 10 years.
Russell
. However, he came to my house party from Cambridge to Cheltenham on the M4 and dual carriageways. I would have thought it would be perfectly decent for this sort of journey (but no fun), but according to the passenger it was pretty horrendous! When he rang me up it sounded like they were in a grandstand at Donington, and it also sounded like they had all the windows open and the roof off which they did not.
After my little ride - when I saw its an amazing sports car - I agree that whilst the ride good and it's a capable everyday car (its even cheap to run), little things like the mechanical engine noise even at idle, and the total lack of seat padding, spoil things. The difficulty of entry/exit I could mostly live with, knowing its inherent in the chassis design.
All my friends saw it and loved it, some of them proclaiming 'wow im going to buy one'. However, I suspect after they (try to) get in it and go out in one, they may change their minds. Yes the performance is brilliant for a 1.8 and the lightweight agility incredible, but 99.8% of buyers would happily trade some of this for some comfort. I don't mean 4 seats and climate control, but seat padding and less of the bad engine noises from behind your ear. (but intake/exhaust noise is all good
). So I ask:
A) Is this what the Europa is? If they're aiming it at less 'enthusiast' and more 'everyday' buyers, why did they make it so ugly?
B) Should the Elise have grown into the new Europa's shoes? Everyone knows and recognises the Elise and would love to buy one if it was a bit more comfortable. Then you would have the Elises looks and image but the comforts to sell it to everyday buyers = a winner. Instead they've got to sell a practically unheard of, unseen new Lotus to everyday Joes which will be difficult.
Then they would simply introduce a brand new model, beneath the larger Elise/Europa, with the super lightweight, no compromise formula, and enthusiasts will lap it up.
This would be much easier than their current difficulty of trying to sell a new, ugly, unheard of model and an Elise which has been around essentially unchanged for 10 years.
Russell
All long journeys are a loud affair. I use ear plugs. They cut out virtually all the noise and you can actually talk to the person next to you easier than when you are not wearing them.
I tried some anti-noise headphones the other day and they are fantastic ! The Bose ones are the ones to get but at £200 its steep. Atleast by having a pair of them you can remove the stereo and speakers and just use the headphones. Not sure how legal it is though...
I tried some anti-noise headphones the other day and they are fantastic ! The Bose ones are the ones to get but at £200 its steep. Atleast by having a pair of them you can remove the stereo and speakers and just use the headphones. Not sure how legal it is though...
Hi Russell
I see you have been a member for quite a while and posted plenty, so you obviously have some appreciation for what's what
The later Elise models have made steady progress in the areas you have outlined - build quality has been upped, mechanical changes made and comfort increased. They are not all the same as an early S1 anymore... but I think you know that..?
I love the S1 for everything it stands for, but would never buy one. Indeed, for me, if they were still using the K Series Rover engine, I wouldn't have one now. The fact that they have made these alterations - either in the name if the US market or competition - are the very reasons my head was turned. It all comes at an ever increasing cost however and has arguably priced many out of the market... yet Lotus are selling more and more cars...
The Europa is something I can't really comment on from a validation perspective. It doesn't do as much for me as an Elise in it's appearance, and beyond that, I don't think there's a world of difference other than more boot space
In summary, yes the S1 is as raw as hell and as you say, 99% of car buyers just aren't into that. The steady evolution (for better or worse will depend on who you are and how you view the Elise) has undeniably widened their market appeal
Lotus isn't for everyone. But if it does for you, it REALLY does it for you!
>> Edited by Janitor on Monday 13th March 12:51
I see you have been a member for quite a while and posted plenty, so you obviously have some appreciation for what's what
The later Elise models have made steady progress in the areas you have outlined - build quality has been upped, mechanical changes made and comfort increased. They are not all the same as an early S1 anymore... but I think you know that..?
I love the S1 for everything it stands for, but would never buy one. Indeed, for me, if they were still using the K Series Rover engine, I wouldn't have one now. The fact that they have made these alterations - either in the name if the US market or competition - are the very reasons my head was turned. It all comes at an ever increasing cost however and has arguably priced many out of the market... yet Lotus are selling more and more cars...
The Europa is something I can't really comment on from a validation perspective. It doesn't do as much for me as an Elise in it's appearance, and beyond that, I don't think there's a world of difference other than more boot space
In summary, yes the S1 is as raw as hell and as you say, 99% of car buyers just aren't into that. The steady evolution (for better or worse will depend on who you are and how you view the Elise) has undeniably widened their market appeal
Lotus isn't for everyone. But if it does for you, it REALLY does it for you!
>> Edited by Janitor on Monday 13th March 12:51
...but I think this is the whole point of the car??? The series 2 is more refined and more comfy IMO. It's still a very raw car, that is the appeal (not to everyone mind). If you don't want that from a sports car then buy a TT or something, then you'll lose out on smile inducing driving, simple as that.
The elise is a track day road car, and has a specific target audience. Yes some people want more refined features, less noise etc etc, but the average elise owner does not. We love the elise for what it is, if you took that away you would not have the car the elise owners have grown to love
Ive not had too many cars in the past, my most recent before my S1 elise was the BMW Mini cooper, and there is no way I would swap any of the refininements in the mini for what i have in the elise.
At the end of the day it is a car in its rawest form. If they made if more refined they would be aiming for a different target audience, and probably a much more competitive market eg RX8, boxster, z4 etc etc.
The europa is to be much more refined, and will be tartgetted towards this end of the market so maybe more what you are after. But for lotus to make the elise more like that (even more so than they already have) would move it away from its true self.
The elise is one of a kind!!
Ive not had too many cars in the past, my most recent before my S1 elise was the BMW Mini cooper, and there is no way I would swap any of the refininements in the mini for what i have in the elise.
At the end of the day it is a car in its rawest form. If they made if more refined they would be aiming for a different target audience, and probably a much more competitive market eg RX8, boxster, z4 etc etc.
The europa is to be much more refined, and will be tartgetted towards this end of the market so maybe more what you are after. But for lotus to make the elise more like that (even more so than they already have) would move it away from its true self.
The elise is one of a kind!!
It's a niche car, it's uncompromising and it certainly isn't for everyone, but, I love mine. If you want more refinement there are plenty of softer alternatives out there, but they don't give the same driving experience.
I have a standard S1 and whilst there is little padding to the seats, I actually find it more comfortable than my Audi A4; thanks mainly to the superb driving position.
It's noisey because sound proofing adds weight, and weight is the enemy of performance (and because the silencer in my zorst is little bigger tha a bean can).
Whilst the Elise has softened slightly over the years, it is still one of the purest driving experiences around. Many manufacturers have let their cars grow with each succesive model but I think it just confuses the car buying public, the Elise is a sports car and is known as such, no point in morphing it into a GT.
Acid test; unless I have to move more than 2 people, a big load or tow a trailer I take the Elise every time.... And the journey probably takes much longer because I'll avoid the dual carriageways anyway.
I have a standard S1 and whilst there is little padding to the seats, I actually find it more comfortable than my Audi A4; thanks mainly to the superb driving position.
It's noisey because sound proofing adds weight, and weight is the enemy of performance (and because the silencer in my zorst is little bigger tha a bean can).
Whilst the Elise has softened slightly over the years, it is still one of the purest driving experiences around. Many manufacturers have let their cars grow with each succesive model but I think it just confuses the car buying public, the Elise is a sports car and is known as such, no point in morphing it into a GT.
Acid test; unless I have to move more than 2 people, a big load or tow a trailer I take the Elise every time.... And the journey probably takes much longer because I'll avoid the dual carriageways anyway.
Sorry Pentoman I think you're missing the point of the Elise.The sort of car you're describing would be another MX5 with a Lotus badge. As others have said the Elise has become a little more refined but at the end of the day its still a raw car for a niche market - you pays yer money.....
Interestingly there's a thread currently running asking if the new Exige is too refined.
Never sat as a passenger in an Elise other than as part of a test drive (Mrs T tells me it ain't the best place in the world), but then Lotus do say 'You and your Lotus, thats all you'll care about'
Interestingly there's a thread currently running asking if the new Exige is too refined.
Never sat as a passenger in an Elise other than as part of a test drive (Mrs T tells me it ain't the best place in the world), but then Lotus do say 'You and your Lotus, thats all you'll care about'
OK agreed I sound like I'm complaining; I'm not. It is a fantastic car, sounds great, you can feel how it handles from the passenger seat which as my friend said, is a good sign. It performs well, looks brilliant and has normal runnings costs and decent reliability. In fact it's a bloody genius car. My point is that in spite of this Lotus are permanently on the brink of closing down and maybe need something like I said above to help them out.
It really stood out that the lack of padding to the seats and excessive noise (but of the non pleasant variety, again sounds when accelerating are all good!) compromised the otherwise perfect package. Seeing the prices S1s are at, I was really thinking it would be great to buy one and use it often, in a way you never can with a caterham. But it disappointingly was a little closer to a caterham than I thought it would be or remember from previous rides in an Elise. But then I do like my Mercs so perhaps its just me?
Or perhaps I expected more cushtiness for the weight...
...My family has a Lotus Elan S1. This is a 1962 car but really does not feel like it.
It feels like an MX-5 in terms of creature comforts; comes with a nice real wood dash, proper comfy seats, a heater obviously, they even had electric windows (back in the '60s!). Yet it has full carpet, normal door access, is probably as comfy as any car from the '60s, a boot about as big as my 190E's, but weighs about 200kg less than the elise and even makes more power in 'sprint' form. So in some ways I can't help but wonder if the Elise really moves things forward by being heavier, less powerful, and much, much less practical. I guess the Elise would be much much better in an accident, but couldn't 35 years of development and technology have brought about a car with all the Elan's properties but much increased safety, whilst keeping that low weight? I guess not or someone would have made it.. but why not?
By the way I feel really, really bad for seemingly knocking the Elise because I love it. Really bad, so bad I wish I hadn't posted this thread!
Russell
It really stood out that the lack of padding to the seats and excessive noise (but of the non pleasant variety, again sounds when accelerating are all good!
) compromised the otherwise perfect package. Seeing the prices S1s are at, I was really thinking it would be great to buy one and use it often, in a way you never can with a caterham. But it disappointingly was a little closer to a caterham than I thought it would be or remember from previous rides in an Elise. But then I do like my Mercs so perhaps its just me? Or perhaps I expected more cushtiness for the weight...
...My family has a Lotus Elan S1. This is a 1962 car but really does not feel like it.
It feels like an MX-5 in terms of creature comforts; comes with a nice real wood dash, proper comfy seats, a heater obviously, they even had electric windows (back in the '60s!). Yet it has full carpet, normal door access, is probably as comfy as any car from the '60s, a boot about as big as my 190E's, but weighs about 200kg less than the elise and even makes more power in 'sprint' form. So in some ways I can't help but wonder if the Elise really moves things forward by being heavier, less powerful, and much, much less practical. I guess the Elise would be much much better in an accident, but couldn't 35 years of development and technology have brought about a car with all the Elan's properties but much increased safety, whilst keeping that low weight? I guess not or someone would have made it.. but why not?
By the way I feel really, really bad for seemingly knocking the Elise because I love it. Really bad, so bad I wish I hadn't posted this thread!
Russell
pentoman said:
It feels like an MX-5 in terms of creature comforts; comes with a nice real wood dash, proper comfy seats, a heater obviously, they even had electric windows (back in the '60s!). Yet it has full carpet, normal door access, is probably as comfy as any car from the '60s, a boot about as big as my 190E's, but weighs about 200kg less than the elise and even makes more power in 'sprint' form. So in some ways I can't help but wonder if the Elise really moves things forward by being heavier, less powerful, and much, much less practical. I guess the Elise would be much much better in an accident, but couldn't 35 years of development and technology have brought about a car with all the Elan's properties but much increased safety, whilst keeping that low weight? I guess not or someone would have made it.. but why not?
You could have a car that is as strong as the Elise but lighter, but it would be hellishly expensive because you'd have to resort to a composite / carbon fibre tub. Seriously labour intensive and very low volume production as a result. Cars that come to mind with this sort of architecture: McLaren F1 / Ferrari F50 / Enzo / Carrera GT.
People tend to overlook the fact that the Elise's brilliance as a driver's car is matched by its brilliance as a business case. I can't think of any other manufacturers that have invested so little in R&D and tooling to produce a car at relatively substantial volume (for a hand-built car). We're talking a few million quid for the S1, compared to hundreds of millions for a normal production car.
[quote]By the way I feel really, really bad for seemingly knocking the Elise because I love it. Really bad, so bad I wish I hadn't posted this thread![/quote]
We might let you off - one day
Marmite car - you either love it or hate. I like the fact that many mortal men don't get it..... you have to an enthusiast and a fair bit "hardcore". Now take a ride in a westie or Caterham and you'll think elise drivers are pussies !!
I traded the air con, electrified comfort for an elise - 4 years on and in my 2nd elise and I miss nothing from those days......
>> Edited by lawrence5 on Monday 13th March 21:12
I traded the air con, electrified comfort for an elise - 4 years on and in my 2nd elise and I miss nothing from those days......
>> Edited by lawrence5 on Monday 13th March 21:12
Sat in an Elise on track round Snetterton on Sunday and I could actually feel that the tyre pressures had risen ... *as a passenger* (when I tested them, yup up from 26 to 30 psi).
This isn't a "hey my butt cheeks do tyre pressures" thing but an illustration of the level of feedback you get from an Elise, and if you pay attention its a truely amazing device.
Any other <£30k chassis that offers the above which you can drive to and from track and stay dry ?
This isn't a "hey my butt cheeks do tyre pressures" thing but an illustration of the level of feedback you get from an Elise, and if you pay attention its a truely amazing device.
Any other <£30k chassis that offers the above which you can drive to and from track and stay dry ?
I didn't understand my S1 at first but after a few tweeks and some Veetwin TLC, she is now the nearest I am going to get to my bike on 4 wheels. Raw is the only word that springs to mind and the fact that she keeps me in the garage in the cold evenings and not infront of the box watching some Eastenders sh*te sums it up really.
Unfortunately she may be going next month for something a little more practical (5-doors - you see where this may be going)
Unfortunately she may be going next month for something a little more practical (5-doors - you see where this may be going)
The standard S1 trim (basically seats like a park bench and no carpets whatsoever) is indeed really sparse, but it's a car which was designed to be a weekend toy that you could drive to a trackday, chuck it around all day and then drive home.
If you want a little more refinement get a car with 111S spec seats, a full carpet set and whack in a little sound deadening yourself.
By it's nature and build though you will always hear more than in an average eurobox. Add a decent exhaust & induction kit and you'll stop worrying about being able to hear the suspension, gearbox, drivetrain etc.
If you want a little more refinement get a car with 111S spec seats, a full carpet set and whack in a little sound deadening yourself.
By it's nature and build though you will always hear more than in an average eurobox. Add a decent exhaust & induction kit and you'll stop worrying about being able to hear the suspension, gearbox, drivetrain etc.
Had my S1 for over 6 1/2 years now, 3K shy of 100,000. Now I find it ok (comfort that is) but then again you have to forgive the little thing; for the grinnnn when you go round the twisties (that bit I love even a 40mph you can have lost of fun). The Elise is no dragster yet it still pulls well, even better with a 'kiwirog' Sabre head.
If you can forgive the getting in, the noise, the clanks & bangs, the temporphobia/hypoglycoalergic; HGFoflogy and ripping trousers when you get in you then will have a rewarding car. Who gives a rats a** what your mates think.
>> Edited by garydvo on Monday 13th March 23:21
If you can forgive the getting in, the noise, the clanks & bangs, the temporphobia/hypoglycoalergic; HGFoflogy and ripping trousers when you get in you then will have a rewarding car. Who gives a rats a** what your mates think.
>> Edited by garydvo on Monday 13th March 23:21
The longest I've driven my S1 in a day, so far, is ~160 miles. Down to Goodwood, an hour or so for breakfast then back to the home counties. When I got home I was exhausted, my arse was numb and my ears were ringing. But it was the most fun I've had in a car.
I also drove it ~90 miles to my girlfriend's the day I picked it up and the lack of comfort didn't bother me at all, probably because I was expecting it to be so much worse.
I also drove it ~90 miles to my girlfriend's the day I picked it up and the lack of comfort didn't bother me at all, probably because I was expecting it to be so much worse.
Just as some people in this thread would never have an S1 for the lack of comfort/toys/quality, I'd never have anything else... the S1 is so pure of purpose. It's as stripped down as you can make a car with it still being a CAR (windscreen windows boot) I'd not bother to go to a caterham/westfield etc because although they're great fun, you have to compromise, I couldn't pack myself and the missus up and tour for a week in it, whereas in the Elise I can (although it's not the most comfy car to do it in.
For me it's perfect and I'd never change it.... apart from maybe pairing it up with an S1 Exige
For me it's perfect and I'd never change it.... apart from maybe pairing it up with an S1 Exige
These criticisims were made of the S1 for everyday road use, and this is why the S2 was created as it was. The S1 was purely designed as a track day and weekend toy. The road useability came as a surprise to Lotus (and buyers), and entering into this new realm meant changes for the S2 to accomodate the everyday use that so many buyers used the cars for.
You can use an S1 as an everyday car, and I know plenty of people that do. I've done many miles as a passenger in an S1 and I must admit that I couldn't use one everyday - my Caterham roadsport was actually considerably more comfortable and quieter! (though with the hood from hell that made it useless everyday). However, I use my S2 111S as an everyday car with absolutely no problems at all. It is comfortable, quite quiet, refined and easy to drive. Obviously it isn't as refined and comfortable as a Porsche Boxster, but the compromises of the S2 Elise are very small in order to get that amazing steering feel through the non assisted rack, a proper cable throttle, and proper, non servoed, brakes. The feeling through the chassis and general driving experience are also far more satisfying than a Porsche or something like that. I use mine everyday with a big grin on my face and wouldn't swap it for anything.
You can use an S1 as an everyday car, and I know plenty of people that do. I've done many miles as a passenger in an S1 and I must admit that I couldn't use one everyday - my Caterham roadsport was actually considerably more comfortable and quieter! (though with the hood from hell that made it useless everyday). However, I use my S2 111S as an everyday car with absolutely no problems at all. It is comfortable, quite quiet, refined and easy to drive. Obviously it isn't as refined and comfortable as a Porsche Boxster, but the compromises of the S2 Elise are very small in order to get that amazing steering feel through the non assisted rack, a proper cable throttle, and proper, non servoed, brakes. The feeling through the chassis and general driving experience are also far more satisfying than a Porsche or something like that. I use mine everyday with a big grin on my face and wouldn't swap it for anything.
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